@pawsplay
Conversely, we're also very good at imagining/constructing conscious people and entities as non-conscious/less-conscious, making it very easy to abjectify large numbers of people because our imaginary conception of their existence is separated and devalued from our own. That's often how marginalisation happens.
@kavana @pawsplay Yes, absolutely. I have been thinking about how the same people will ascribe intelligence and consciousness to AIs because they can string words together, while dehumanizing people who can’t speak their language or who are non-verbal.

@MisuseCase @kavana @pawsplay

Yeah, this is a good point.

I've heard it argued that this is a common theme in transphobia and other fascist-adjacent movements. Transphobes love unborn foetuses and very young children because they can imagine them as being virtuous upholders of any values they project onto them. However, as soon as that child gets old enough to be able to express their own feelings, then those feelings will probably be different from what was projected onto them, and the transphobe reacts with horror that their child has been "stolen from them."

@pawsplay This is how autistic society would look like

@pawsplay

AIUI, the Turing test came out of Alan Turing worrying that these computation devices being built might become sentient (not unreasonable, given what was known at the time). The crux of the test is that if it passes, we *must* give it human rights unless we can prove it's not sentient.

So when an "AI" company tries to create general AI and then sell it, they are in fact trying to recreate slavery.

@suetanvil @pawsplay it's kinda funny that most AIs (especially LLMs) are constructed in a way that they can't be turing complete (due to being tightly memory constrained). So the turing test is still a kinda great way to catch AI.

@fogti @pawsplay

Not really, beyond the naming. The Turing Test and Turing Completeness are completely unrelated concepts; they're just named after the same guy.

@pawsplay while he is right...

... poor Tim. He only wanted to be helpful.

@pawsplay HE KILLED THE PENCIL 
@bartholin @pawsplay Technically, he made two pencils. Maybe that's how pencils reproduce.
@pawsplay I am not getting over the sudden and violent demise of Tim.
@pawsplay Hell, I still feel bad about throwing a teddy down the stairs when I was five.
@pawsplay That is why so many people give their vacuum cleaner robots a name.
@PurpleShadow @pawsplay That is why @amyworrall *refuses* to give her car a name. TBH I agree.

@pawsplay That incident with the professor comes from the first episode of the TV series "Community", back in 2011:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z906aLyP5fg

Community - A Pencil Named Steve

YouTube
@pawsplay In the same vein: I was directing "The Illusion," by Tony Kushner; at the end, the father discovers that his son is not dead, but an actor. He gives a speech about how he knew his infant son would be a 'disappointment.' I told my actor to cradle the infant son, then open his arms on 'disappointment.' "But I'll drop the baby!" he cried. "THERE IS NO BABY," I said. "THAT'S THE POINT."
@Lichtenbergian @pawsplay Some of that is personification, some is simply good mime practice. On Whose Line is it Anyway, when Ryan Styles plays a (throwaway) character and mimes drinking from a plastic cup, when the game/sketch is over, he puts “the cup” down carefully on the floor.
@pawsplay I gasped at readi g him snapping the pencil 😭
@pawsplay wow I am going to use that someday
@pawsplay @NilaJones The power of humanization, the opposite of dehumanization. Little buttons in our biological heads that can be pushed with very little effort. #AbuseCulture
@pawsplay OMG I need googly eyes and a pencil :>

@pawsplay we're great at projecting our own humanity and recognizing its reflection

generally we're poor at recognizing and accepting the humanity of others

if anything, our minds process that as uncanny and "wrong" in the manner of a distorted photo, and compel us to error-check and dismantle everything that fails to reassure us by looking as we expect—to dismiss whatever doesn't resemble the reflection we're used to seeing as, at best, a mistake

inhuman and fictional constructs are easy; we can see ourselves in them just fine, ignore whatever doesn't fit, and we usually don't have to worry about them arguing back

@pawsplay Justice for Tim the Pencil!

@pawsplay

But also Turing test: Every time a machine or animal does something new, we move the goalposts on what it means to be human.

We cope so hard because we just *have* to be special. It's a trip watching that slowly collapse.

@Phosphenes So, it turns out, we're just animals with an uncomfortable talent for thinking about the nature of reality.

@pawsplay

Maybe being uncomfortable with reality will be our new Turing test! 😀

@Phosphenes Hey, if we can demonstrate software can both understand existential issues, and feel anxiety, I feel like we ought to at least call them cousin and give them a hug.
@Phosphenes @pawsplay Genuinely convincing a skilled interrogator that the bot is human, in an unrestricted text conversation, was where the original goalposts were (Turing, 1950). I think we’re currently getting *close*. But in the 1980s people got excited because there was success on a considerably wider set of goalposts (sounds pretty human to an idiot in a hurry, when talking about specific topics/roleplaying a specific scenario). 1/2
@Phosphenes @pawsplay Since then we’ve been moving the goalposts slowly *back* to where they were to start with. Like training a striker first to kick the ball far enough to get it over the line at all, then getting them to be more and more consistent at getting near the middle…
@johnaldis @Phosphenes Right. When I was a youth, I was actually interested in natural language interpretation. But during my burnout years, a lot of the interesting problems were "solved." But generating an actual conversation is next level, and we are not there. Because fundamentally, LLMs are limited because they don't know anything. They don't get why you shouldn't eat glue, because they don't eat, and they haven't learned enough about us to guess. They have no model for it.
@pawsplay I literally wrote a big blog post about this (projecting personhood onto things that aren't persons)
I still hate chatbots because right now they are tools of capitalism. But I do get it.
https://wyatt8740.gitlab.io/site/blog/007_008.html#bubblegum-review-1
Wyatt's Blog: Bubblegum Crisis 5 & 6 Analysis

@pawsplay not gonna lie even reading this i felt bad for Tim the pencil reading that he was snapped
@pawsplay not to dump on anyone here but a hard truth... my colleagues and I, really very many people, have been dumping on the Turing test for a very long time. Me since the 90s. My mentors since the 70s. We *love* Turing, but reject the test, an artifact of its times. The clearest progenitor of this idea is the (gross) John Searle, but he was correct. A research assistant abuser, yes, but correct, also yes. One of my collaborations, C5 corporation, wrote a whole play about it...
@km6ecc It was never, like, a complete theory. Just a concept Turing came up with to think about intelligence.
@pawsplay pretty aware of that, I teach this stuff and still force students to read the Turing. I usually just summarize the Searle in lecture... Hard to make them read everything! Have you read any of these? "Computing Machinery and Intelligence" 1950, actually a quite funny and delightful argumentative essay.

@pawsplay

Look at the many, many photos of power sockets, lawn chairs and washing machines in which we recognise facial expressions. We are absolutely fantastic at recognising ourselves in things that aren't anything like us. At recognising emotions in inanimate objects. At imagining complex motivations in random events.

@mcv Not only that, we personalize the actions of other human beings to ourselves. But people do things for their own reasons, and those reasons often are not about us.
@pawsplay what a monster, that pencil had a family.

@pawsplay Daniel Dennett (RIP) calls this "the intentional stance" & he wrote an entire book about it. We take the intentional stance when we ascribe intent & purpose to the behavior of something outside ourselves (Dennett himself takes things a step further & believes that we also apply to ourselves, but that's another story).

"The Mind's Eye" that he edited with Hofstadter contains a couple of chapters that touch deeply on this idea, including a mechanical tortoise that wails when damaged.

@pawsplay I mean that's just the pilot for Community

@pawsplay So true. It's one of the first things very young children do.

I suppose ultimately it helps us imagine other humans are like ourselves and empathise with them, which is what holds societies together.

But it has its downside.

#AI

@pawsplay I'm not sure I could think of a pencil as a person. That seems silly.

A popsicle stick, though, that I can get behind.
@pawsplay Has he been charged with premeditated murder?
Animism is Normative Consciousness - The Emerald

For 98% of human history, 99.9% of our ancestors lived, breathed, and interacted with a world that they saw and felt to be animate. Imbued with lifeforce. Inhabited by and permeated with forces, with which we exist in ongoing relation. This animat...

Buzzsprout
@pawsplay i mean, one of the movies that won a bunch of oscars last year had this... and it was one of the most profound moments of this movie.
@pawsplay A bubble that inflates every few years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA_effect
ELIZA effect - Wikipedia

@pawsplay People looked at the stars and thought "wow, look at all those people up there." They felt a breeze, heard thunder, or had to navigate a flooded river and thought "that's a person doing that". They saw the Universe and thought "a person made this".

@pawsplay @mynameistillian @nyrath Yep! GPT-style AI passing the Turing Test sometimes doesn't mean that GPT-style AI is sapient and worthy of personhood or being anything except a (flawed) tool.

It means that the Turing Test is twaddle.

@pawsplay
Omigosh! That’s awful!

I did a lesson with year 11 students (16-17) where they had to choose a potato out of a bag, look at it, then put it back into a small bag for their group, then retrieve it. Each time, the group sizes increased, it took longer to find their potato, & audible sighs of relief were heard. At the end they were allowed to draw on their potato, & every student chose to give them a face.

This was a mainstream class.

@pawsplay There's a remarkable (frightening) resemblance between the output of LLM's and the carefully worded dissembling of corporatespeak/ government "official statements". Both are essentially trying to disguise the implementation of automatic rules as actual thought.

@pawsplay I feel like this is really illustrative of how many people feel regarding "AI";

Kind of reminds me of the Google LaMDA incident