Ryan SingelMar 19, 2024

I still think the most under-reported, most holy shit tech story of the last 5+ years is how good e-bikes have gotten and how much more affordable a decent e-bike has become.

E-cars and trucks are a nice change but mostly meh. E-bikes, tho? They are magic.

They deserve subsidies and way more press attention.

Show threadRyan Singel

E-bikes outsell electric cars and trucks, and are the best-selling Electric Vehicles.

Meanwhile most journalists focus on the traditional automotive market and use the term EV to refer only to e-cars/trucks.

Mar 19, 2024 at 7:36amWeb
Show threadAmericanist4UMar 19, 2024
@ryansingel
Electric scooters are great also!
Show threadMarion GrauMar 19, 2024
@ryansingel source? Would like to refer to this
Show threadJarjantifaMar 19, 2024
@ryansingel
I worry a bit though. If those Ebikes mainly replace regular bicycles, then they're still only adding to the overall energy consumption...
This is really only good news if the Ebikes replace cars or small motorcycles/mopeds...
Show threadBen ZaninMar 20, 2024
@jarjan @ryansingel fortunately that's exactly what ebikes are doing. c.f. the Bloomberg info cited by https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/280-million-e-bikes-are-slashing-oil-demand-far-more-than-electric-vehicles/
280 million e-bikes are slashing oil demand far more than electric vehicles

E-bikes and scooters displace 4x as much demand for oil as all of the EVs in the world.

Ars Technica
Show threadEmile SnyderMar 20, 2024

@jarjan @ryansingel I can tell you for sure that's what happened for my household. I still like riding non electric for fun, but the e-cargo has ~4500 miles on it in the first 2.5 years while noon electric was a handful of rides a year before we took the plunge.

The number of places that ebikes open up to doing most trips by bike where doing it unassisted is impractical is pretty amazing.

Show threadJarjantifaMar 20, 2024
@esnyder
I guess I'm seeing this from my very specific Dutch perspective. I don't have data, so I this is purely anecdotal/a feeling. But I'm the Netherlands I have the impression that electric bikes are mainly replacing regular bicycles, in addition to replacing some old mopeds.
@ryansingel
Show threadCoral (bleached era)Mar 21, 2024
@jarjan @ryansingel anacdata, but nearly all e-bikes I see in Cambridge uk are e cargo or e-bakfiets with 2 children in - it’s always been cycle heavy but now you don’t need to move away if you have children!
Show threadAlexApr 13, 2024

@jarjan @ryansingel

Even if they're displacing bike rides, ebikers tend to ride more, which is good! Greater economic activity/utility and more exercise.

And the energy consumption of ebikes per mile is incredibly small! I can't remember the exact comparison, but if you consider the energy consumption of food/calories needed for a bicycle ebikes come out well.

Fundamentally a bicycle is an incredibly efficient machine for moving humans, whether it's powered by a small battery or by oatmeal

Show threadconsumableJoyMar 19, 2024
@ryansingel @kimu Isn’t that because they don’t refer to regular bicycles as “vehicles” either? I’m not saying they are right to omit bicycles, but there are some weird semantics here. Like a bicycle is a vehicle by dictionary definition, but under California law, a bicycle is not considered a “vehicle” although riders must adhere to pretty much all the same laws.
Show threadLisPiMar 20, 2024
@ryansingel For a certain definition of affordable anyway.

They're certainly not a casual purchase even now compared to a used non-electric bike.

Of course here the roads (and the drivers) are sufficiently screwed up I wouldn't feel /remotely/ safe using a bike on them. Rather, anything smaller than a bus feels unsafe.
Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Mar 20, 2024
@lispi314 @ryansingel They've gotten really cheap - you can get a basic one for a couple hundred bucks, new. When the conversation is about the cost of personal transportation, that's insanely cheap. Only the indigent are unable to afford that, and those are people we're supposed to be supporting anyway. (That we're not is a whole other conversation)
Show threadLisPiMar 20, 2024
@AGTMADCAT @ryansingel Don't the indigent represent a significant part of the population (in those living paycheck to paycheck)?

(Of course cars are not any more affordable, so they just get squeezed until something gives.)
Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Mar 20, 2024
@lispi314 @ryansingel Living paycheck to paycheck implies food and housing and other basic necessities, but little to nothing beyond that. Indigent means not even that - the homeless, starving, and so on.
Show threadLisPiMar 20, 2024
@AGTMADCAT @ryansingel I see.

I would say the expense remains a problem even to those who aren't indigent but merely impoverished. Many of them cannot have any credit, which makes said expense rather problematic (and financing with bad or no credit tends to involve aboslutely usurious rates).
Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Mar 20, 2024
@lispi314 @ryansingel Well, how are they getting around at the moment? Couple hundred bucks a month in bus fares? I'm not saying that this is a solution that covers 100% of people, but literally no solution ever can be. In a healthy society there should be many layered and overlapping solutions to each problem, so that no one falls through the gap. But I'm confident that well over 95% of Americans could scrounge together enough to buy a $200 ebike, get one donated, or similar.
Show threadLisPiMar 20, 2024
@AGTMADCAT @ryansingel > Well, how are they getting around at the moment? Couple hundred bucks a month in bus fares?

Here that'd mostly be it (though buses are cheaper than that, still not exactly free though), yes, and applying to year-long waiting lists for dramatically understocked affordable housing in areas that are sometimes closer to jobs.

> In a healthy society there should be many layered and overlapping solutions to each problem, so that no one falls through the gap.

I agree.
Show threadAlexander The 1stMar 20, 2024

@AGTMADCAT @lispi314 @ryansingel I think it's worth noting that the "Couple hundred bucks a month" is not a splurge purchase - if they're living paycheck to paycheck, they're probably getting fares separately.

And in B.C., TransLink fares as 2 1-zone fares a day (So, round-trip 1-zone) only comes out to $158.10 ($195.3 if only using cash or direct payment rather than compass card) a month.

And a monthly pass is only $104.90.

Show threadAlexander The 1stMar 20, 2024

@AGTMADCAT @lispi314 @ryansingel The calculations I did was based on 31-day months, and based on the fare tables here [ https://www.translink.ca/transit-fares/pricing-and-fare-zones ].

I'll also add that as my sister pointed out, transit fare is cheaper than having a car, but a car can be cheaper than paying for transit fare *and* having a car.

The same issue would apply to having an E-bike and then also still needing to use transit for some distances - that's more costly.

Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Mar 20, 2024
@AT1ST @lispi314 @ryansingel Well sure, but if getting the ebike drives the number of bus trips below ~20/mo, then there's still a net savings being realized. If it drives the number of trips below 10 then it pays for itself in what, 4 months? Even if it's very low quality it should last at least that long.
Show threadAlexander The 1stMar 22, 2024

@AGTMADCAT @lispi314 @ryansingel Just to be clear, you can reuse bus fares as long as it's within 90 minutes of your bus fare.

But in this upcoming April, there are 22 days of Monday - Friday, where return trips would double up to 44, and that's not including weekends, if you plan to do *anything* else that goes beyond an E-Bike capability.

An E-Bike then is most useful if you're going somewhere with heavily limited transit capabilities...but not as much otherwise.

Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Mar 22, 2024
@AT1ST @lispi314 @ryansingel I'm not sure what you mean by that last part - ebikes work great in most of the same roles as transit, or as a complement to it. If you're going somewhere in your city that's, say, 3-5 miles from your house, then either a bus or an ebike is likely a great option. A car is a crap option because parking it sucks (anywhere civilized, of course), and it's too far for walking to really make sense unless you're stranded.
Show threadAlexander The 1stMar 22, 2024

@AGTMADCAT @lispi314 @ryansingel So this explanation is sort of cheating, since it's actually a 3-zone distance, but hopefully gets the scale of the issue of "Just get an E-Bike and don't you can skip transit".

If you need to do that level of transit in a day (And given rent costs, this could be a requirement to work in Vancouver and live in Surrey), the sheer time taken is...immense.

You're going to need transit for this route most of the time.

Show threadAlexander The 1stMar 22, 2024
@AGTMADCAT @lispi314 @ryansingel You *can* bike that (And I know someone who bikes from closer to one end to farther out where transit is less...well supported.), but if you have your E-Bike, it's still way more practical to bring your E-Bike *onto* Transit for most of that stretch, and then... you're paying for both types of transit.
Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Mar 22, 2024

@AT1ST @lispi314 @ryansingel Come on now, switching to trains isn't fair, that's a really long way! =)

But yes, you and I both live in places with crippling housing shortages, so our cities are not the best examples to use for how things "should" work. But if you're looking at a 20mi/30km commute that's not exactly on a rail corridor then chances are you're going to get a car, and an ebike plus transit is going to be a massive savings in comparison.

Show threadAlexander The 1stMar 22, 2024
@AGTMADCAT @lispi314 @ryansingel It is admittedly sort of cheating, I'll admit, but I will point out that technically, the SkyTrain uses the exact same pricing model as the buses.
(And I generally consider it different than a train itself - technically, there is a bus route along that same route, though as I understand, it only runs late at night. Also, only part of a route one might take.)
That said,an E-Bike plus transit is still more expensive than just relying on good public transit alone.
Show threadAlexander The 1stMar 22, 2024
@AGTMADCAT @lispi314 @ryansingel Actually to prove that, I checked - going the opposite direction and set for "Last Available Time", it's two buses, and still only 1 hour and 27 minutes. While that is about twice as long as the 40 minute trek, it's still an hour shorter than the E-Bike route.)
Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Mar 24, 2024
@AT1ST @lispi314 @ryansingel If you're traveling right along a major corridor then absolutely, that makes sense. But honestly I'm not sure what you're arguing for at this point - that $200 ebikes are bad? Transit is great but most people don't live in areas with adequate last mile connectivity, so ebikes fill that gap, and once you have an ebike it will also take over many of the short range trips from transit. I have the example of 3-5 miles quite intentionally, because that's too far to walk but waiting for and paying for transit isn't a great option either, while a cheap ebike will handle that perfectly.
Show threadDavid S (inactive)Mar 20, 2024
@lispi314 @AGTMADCAT @ryansingel ebikes don't stop regular bikes existing?
Show threadLisPiMar 20, 2024
@Pionir @ryansingel @AGTMADCAT Indeed they don't, but the benefit which ebikes would have is that it permits longer commutes than would be reasonable by bike otherwise... and it also permits those with physical limitations that would preclude the use of a bike for such commutes to actually do it anyway.

So while one can buy a mundane bike for cheaper it comes with more limitations. Which is unfortunate as it leaves situations where the added expense precludes a bike. (And yet the investment of an electrical bike would be cheaper than using the bus for several months, but then we run into Sam Vimes' Boots theory.)
Show threadDavid S (inactive)Mar 20, 2024

@lispi314 @AGTMADCAT @ryansingel how is the expense for a new thing a problem when the cheaper things still exist and remain an option? It's like saying when helicopters were invented, the price was a problem because ordinary people couldn't afford to buy one to replace their bike.

The main cost benefit of an e-bike is it is cheaper to buy and run than a car, so those forced into cars for whatever reason, but are struggling to afford them, now have a cheaper alternative.

Show threadLisPiMar 20, 2024
@Pionir @ryansingel @AGTMADCAT > how is the expense for a new thing a problem when the cheaper things still exist and remain an option?

This assumes you already had the prior thing and had the opportunity to use it. I did specifically mention two cases where its use would've been impossible and the opportunity cost of improving one's situation might be prohibitive, such that all available choices are worse.

I'm quite glad that we didn't find some way to screw up our urban design enough to *need* helicopters or have much reasonable use for them.

> The main cost benefit of an e-bike is it is cheaper to buy and run than a car, so those forced into cars for whatever reason, but are struggling to afford them, now have a cheaper alternative.

Which already requires both monetary and physical ability to buy & use a car (considering how awful bus service is in much of USA, do you really think people are using it because they realistically have a choice?). There are several motor and neurological issues which prevent that (safely and/or legally) but not the use of a pedelec.
Show threadDavid S (inactive)Mar 20, 2024

@lispi314 @AGTMADCAT @ryansingel the two cases you mentioned would necessitate using something already, which still exists, so how does an e-bike being expensive change that?

I agree it's good we didn't design infrastructure around everyone having personal helicopter, despite how amazing it looked in Back to the Future 2.

Show threadMisuse CaseMar 20, 2024

@lispi314 @Pionir @ryansingel @AGTMADCAT Higher-end e-bikes generally cost around $2-3k from what I’m seeing. It’s hard to get even a used car for that much these days. And most e-bikes cost half that much, or less.

While this puts them out of reach for a lot of poor and low-wealth people they are still much more affordable than a car for a vast number of people.

1/2

Show threadMisuse CaseMar 20, 2024

@lispi314 @Pionir @ryansingel @AGTMADCAT If you factor in the cost of gas, maintenance, insurance, etc. for cars, they also cost a lot less on a month-to-month basis.

They’re not a 100% solution for sure. We need to build more public transportation for everyone. But they’re way more affordable on the whole than automobiles.

2/2

Show threadwauzMar 22, 2024
@ryansingel
Well. Journalists just "report" on that, what they get as "information" on their desks. That stuff, that PR departments and advertisement agencies spread.