The American dream didn't die.

That makes it sound like a natural event.

Like it was inevitable.

Here's the truth:

It was fucking murdered.

By greedy, unchecked corporations, bought and paid for politicians, and every coked-up asshole on Wall Street.

@forthy42 You can also get extremely wealthy from inventing something or writing or creating art, none of which requires exploitation. All of which are required for a healthy society. Capitalism needs regulated but it’s dishonest & simplistic to reduce it like you just did & it dilutes your legitimate argument. There are also still very real class & race barriers in every country, some worse than here, that are as exclusionary as capitalism, that also need to be overcome. @Daojoan

@Pineywoozle

Inventions and creative work don't spontaneously turn into money. You have to either sell the rights for a lot of money or set up production and distribution channels.

Either way it takes a lot of pre-existing wealth and a partner in the position to exploit others.

@forthy42

@magitweeter Nope. I’ve personaly seen it done thru hard work and sacrifice. No big wealth, no exploitive distribution. Your ideas are simplistic, jingoistic BS. Selling isn’t automatically exploitive neither is production. @forthy42

@Pineywoozle

Okay. If you'd like to share the details then i'll be willing to concede that invention and creative work can make one wealthy without exploitation.

@magitweeter I’m an artist, I create beautiful jewelry, if my goal was wealth , there are 1,000s of stores that would purchase them thru direct contact. I choose to focus on creation rather than spending my time contacting more than I do & then having to employ workers to supply them. My cousin, worked hard, bootstrapped a company & invented some VPN software, paid his employees well to produce copies, millions of which were sold at a reasonable price. No exploitation, no wealth funding.

@magitweeter @Pineywoozle

You could make enough jewelry on your own to stock 1,000s of stores?

@HeavenlyPossum I clearly said I would have to employ people if I wanted to sell to more store than I currently do. @magitweeter

@Pineywoozle @magitweeter

So to collect all that revenue, you could only do it through the cooperation of many people contributing their labor?

If that’s the case—if that revenue is only available when someone else labors—it seems like it’s at least as much *their* hard work, and thus not clear why any one person should be able to become wealthier than anyone else participating in that collaborative effort.

@HeavenlyPossum They don’t do the same labor. They didn’t design it, find a buyer or study for yrs, living on far less than they make while working more. They get paid in accordance to their input. For every hour they spend producing my design, I’ve spent thousands getting to the point of being able to create it, source materials and a buyer. If they lived as frugally as most artists do for decades, worked double time & put that aside they’d have an equivalent amount of “wealth”@magitweeter

@Pineywoozle @magitweeter

But your ability to access that additional revenue depends *entirely* on the presence or absence of their labor, right?

Ie, the value of their contribution is “all of that additional revenue” and the cost of its absence is “all of that additional revenue.” Right?

@HeavenlyPossum No.it means the value of their contribution (labour) isn’t equal to the value of my labor & my intellectual contribution, it’s just labor. It means that THEIR access to that additional revenue is dependent on THEM putting in the same number of hours I have and the same intellectual contribution. If they want to work unpaid for decades, they can get paid for it in the same way I can if they create something above just labor as I have. @magitweeter

@magitweeter @Pineywoozle

But you can’t access any of that additional revenue without their labor.

@HeavenlyPossum No to be honest if just wealth was the goal, most handmade jewelry could be produced in a semi automated fashion that would allow anyone to make exponentially more money & still call it handmade.. For me there is an intrinsic intangible value to art produced by human hands. Everyone who’s ever made anything understands that value. There’s joy in physical work that’s rewarding in and of itself. @magitweeter

@Pineywoozle @magitweeter

Sure—I’m not denying any of the satisfaction you derive from your jewelry making, or the satisfaction people derive from wearing hand-made jewelry.

Unfortunately, workers can eat satisfaction or intrinsic value, and so we come back to the question of how we apportion the revenue that’s generated by your hypothetical workers, or your cousin’s actual workers.

If we were to start from absolute scratch, and make no a priori assumptions, we might imagine that someone with a good idea and someone else with the labor needed to bring that good idea to fruition might start an equal partnership in which they agree to split the revenue in some free manner. But, instead, we live in a world in which the capitalist firm, with its hierarchy and its control, ensures that workers receive wages worth a fraction of the value of the revenue their labor generates.

@HeavenlyPossum How exactly is me laboring without pay for decades to come up with ideas, & create a structure to sell it equitable to someone who simply works for a few hours to produce it, while I still continue to work more hours than them to create new ideas as old ideas age out, source the materials find new buyers .(buyers quit buying for lots of reasons not related to my goods btw) etc? The workers “eat intrinsic value” by purchasing goods they can’t produce individually. @magitweeter

@Pineywoozle @magitweeter

Can you collect that revenue without their labor? Earlier, you told me that you couldn’t. It seems that these people are your “employees” rather than your partners by dint of the structure of the capitalist firm, not by some act of nature. If you wanted that revenue and needed their labor, and they wanted that revenue and wanted your designs, it seems like you might create a partnership rather than a hierarchical firm.

Now, in that partnership, maybe you’d all freely agree that your creative labor plus the labor you’re doing to find new buyers, source new materials, etc, is worth greater remuneration. Or maybe not! I’m not prejudging a free and voluntary agreement!

(Workers can’t eat intrinsic value and have no mechanism for turning intrinsic value into food. What they need to eat is *currency* they can exchange for food. I’m trying here to avoid mixing up different senses of “value”).