Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

https://lemmy.world/post/12486728

Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu - Lemmy.World

Nintendo’s full case filing [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/519627952648880128/1212141332412235787/1.pdf?ex=65f0c196&is=65de4c96&hm=b91e24f1c26e4fb3599891133c9058059e3df12ebeba2b79fd4c5ea7c12bba5e&] _____ https://twitter.com/stephentotilo/status/1762576284817768457/ [https://twitter.com/stephentotilo/status/1762576284817768457/] “NEW: Nintendo is suing the creators of popular Switch emulator Yuzu, saying their tech illegally circumvents Nintendo’s software encryption and facilitates piracy. Seeks damages for alleged violations and a shutdown of the emulator. Notes 1 million copies of Tears of the Kingdom downloaded prior to game’s release; says Yuzu’s Patreon support doubled during that time. Basically arguing that that is proof that Yuzu’s business model helps piracy flourish.”

They might have a case if yuzu is actually decrypting switch software. That would be stupid of the developers, though. I would assume that they require you to provide decrypted games.

That’s basically the only leg nintendo has to stand on here, but nintendo can out lawyer you into the poor house regardless.

AFAIK rooted Switch consoles are used to decrypt the games and Yuzu just tries to execute whatever nonencrypted Switch binary. Unless Nintendo can prove that either the Yuzu developers themselves are behind ripping commercial Switch games or directly colluded with the rippers, they’d have a hard time to actually win. That said, regular people with normal income levels will probably just sign everything because a prolonged lawsuit is about just bankrupting them, not being ruled the win by the judge.

From their own guide

yuzu starts with the error “Missing Derivation Components”

yuzu requires console keys to play your games. Please follow our Quickstart Guide to dump these keys and system files from your Nintendo Switch.

Their guide also talks about dumping games from your console so I’m not sure how far it goes, but if they want console keys they are likely decrypting something

Yuzu doesn’t do any encryption breaking. The user is meant to use their Switch to dump their keys, which are legally owned by the user. Then it uses those legal keys to decrypt the ROMs by the exact normal method that the Switch itself uses. They were going based on precedent legal rulings about console emulation. Copying the decryption keys and making copies of the software for archival purposes have both been previously ruled to be perfectly legal for the enduser and don’t constitute piracy. This suit will challenge that notion.

Then it uses those legal keys to decrypt the ROMs by the exact normal method that the Switch itself uses

this is the part where they circumvent the copyright protection, even if you do it “the same way” it’s still not authorized, the DMCA is fairly broad about this stuff, one of the reasons it’s so bad

I sincerely hope that Yuzu developers don’t end up like Gary Bowser and have their income garnished for life by Nintendo.

As much as I dislike Nintendo and wish Yuzu devs all the best I'd like to point out that Bowser wasn't some innocent guy who was caught by big bad company - Moonie has a video that goes into specifics about his involvement with a pirate enterprise worth a shitton of money.

Other than that yeah, I hope they can survive this situation. I wonder if Ryujinx devs are next.

Nintendo's $14 Million Pirate Hunt: The Tale of Gary Bowser

YouTube
Isn’t moonie the dude who shit talked Karl Jobst and ended up deleting his video because Jobst called him out on how wrong he was on pretty much everything and how terrible his research was. Like literally just watched a couple YouTube videos level research? Don’t know if I can trust someone who would fuck up THAT bad. I get people make mistakes sometimes but that’s just complete negligence especially for someone with an audience that big.

No idea, I'm only familiar with some of his videos so can't say one way or another. Is there any place I could read about it?

Edit: Also, I believe the video I mentioned has links to specific legal documents surrounding this case so it should be easy to fact check. Still, I'm not trying to whitewash the situation you wrote about would love to learn more if it happened.

Edit 2: A'ight, while I didn't have time for a deep dive I did manage to confirm that situation happened.

I sucks since the videos I've seen seemed reasonably researched and now I'm wondering whether that was a one-time screw up or a normal thing that simply wasn't caught more often. Guess I'll try to look into it more when I'm free.

The video by Karl Jobst himself on the matter is pretty informative and has proof to back up all of his claims. Iirc moonie also quoted legal statue and stuff on his video but was rebuked my Karl as well, don’t quote me on this though, I’ll have to rewatch that video to confirm. Here’s the link. Moonie did end up apologizing in the end and Karl did tell his viewers right off the back to not harass Moonie.
Clueless Lawyer Defends The Completionist

YouTube

Iirc moonie also quoted legal statue and stuff on his video but was rebuked my Karl as well

Yeah, that's why I'm planning to look into whether that was a screw up or not, thanks for the link too.

I'm familiar with HBG but it's always good to mention him.

He’s not innocent and went to jail for it, but does it warrant garnishing his income for life? I think they went too far with that.

Oh no, I completely agree no one should be completely screwed over piracy. Just wanted to add some context as I saw a lot of discussion about him ending with "poor innocent dude" without digging into details. That's all.

Nintendo has a lot of problems that should absolutely be called out. I hope me trying to add more details didn't imply otherwise.

They are taking his income for life, that’s an insane overreach specially for a big successful company like Nintendo, and it didn’t matter since the actual team behind it is back selling flashcarts that are even better than having to solder a chip.

Yes, it is insane. That case is also a great showcase of how trying to make example out of a single guy doesn't really work since, as you mentioned, rest of the team is still doing their thing.

I'd like to think (well, hope anyway) that no one looks at Bowser's story and thinks "yeah, that's a reasonable conclusion".

nintendo-insider.com link for an article that works.
Nintendo Sues Creators Behind Yuzu Switch Emulator | Nintendo Insider

It has emerged that Nintendo of America is taking Tropic Haze to court - the company that owns, develops and operates Yuzu, which it claims allows users to

Nintendo Insider
Don’t know how good a case Nintendo has here unless it can prove that Yuzu itself contains proprietary code that allows the ROMs to be played. If the decryption is being done on the ROMs’ end, then that’s just another reason to go after the ones dumping and distributing the ROMs. Nintendo couldn’t even substantially stop Dolphin, and Dolphin actually had a decryption key straight from Wii firmware in it. Good luck to them, but they’re likely going for the wrong legal target. Taking down what ROM sites they can (which would legally be a lot easier than the emulator makers) is just getting rid of drops in the ocean of the ROMs’ spread, but they’re the target Nintendo should be going after.
Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Yuzu has any proprietary code. Folks have to go to other websites to download the Switch firmware and keys needed to play games.

That’s not really enough to be not in violation. For example, vlc can’t natively decrypt blurays. This is because both its not bundled with the decryption library nor the decryption keys. Vlc out of the box can not decrypt blurays.

If yuzu can, if you provide some keys, eh that might be enough for them to win. It’s certainly not enough to push nintendo away. You unfortunately need to be extremely careful around the dmca stuff.

It really depends on the kind of encryption being used. I’m pretty sure if it’s a common algorithm that logic does not stand.
You don’t just need to provide keys, but an entire firmware dump. Yuzu contains no executable Switch code AFAIK
Not claiming it does. It seems like it might have the tooling to break copyright enforcement if you give it the right keys is the problem.
they basically have a weak argument because they claim yuzu gives you links to the tools to get the keys to enable piracy.
indeed. they should sue fitgirl instead, who distributes an emulator, with an included rom and keys etc. ready to play
They don’t, they just want legal money drain u til they cave. Nintendo is abusive af.

DMCA § 1201 is the anti-circumvention clause. It makes it illegal to circumvent DRM, no copyrighted content reproduction needed.

Yuzu may have defenses if they clean-room broke the encryption, but it’s a fight that will be difficult because the statute itself is unreasonable - essentially outlawing using knowledge to circumvent access controls. To those of us who know about this statute and its history in attempt to lock-down content, it’s a serious scumbag move because they may actually win. The statute is terrible and has been since it was enacted in 1998.

There are two things in conflict that apply to Dolphin, and in general to post-DRM console emulators:

  • It’s illegal to create or distribute a device which circumvents DRM.
  • It’s legal to ignore DMCA restrictions for the sole purpose of making things interoperable, like running software on machines it wasn’t originally created for when you’d be able to run it on the machine it was created for.

The wording in the legislation is sufficiently vague that it’s not obvious whether it’s illegal to create or distribute a device that circumvents DRM for the sole purpose of interoperability. If a case goes to court, it could set a precedent that has to be applied in the future, or it could be settled out of court to avoid setting a precedent, and so far, there’s no case law setting a precedent.

When Nintendo asked Valve not to allow Dolphin onto Steam, despite what some people were saying, the decryption key was known to be there, and the Dolphin team had legal advice that it was reasonable to expect that the interoperability exceptions had more power than the DRM circumvention restriction. The decryption key is a so-called illegal number, but these are probably not actually illegal, and you can see several examples on the Wikipedia page about them. Nintendo ended up taking no action against Dolphin, and it wouldn’t have been a good case to try and set a precedent with as there weren’t obvious damages now it’s been so long since the Wii stopped being sold, and because the Dolphin team have historically been so diligent about stamping out discussion of piracy in their official communities, making it hard to argue that it’s intended as a DRM circumvention device rather than an interoperability tool. Also, Dolphin’s never taken donations, easily covering all their costs with just basic ads on their site.

Yuzu’s a bit of an easier target. For a start, it’s got a Patreon, and that makes it easier to paint its developers in a bad light as they’re getting money (as well as meaning there’s actual money to recover). They’ve also got data to back up the suggestion that lots and lots of Yuzu users are pirating games instead of just playing games they’ve already got a disk copy of. In a sensible world where laws are applied fairly, there’s an easy argument that hoops to jump through like requiring the user to provide Switch firmware show they’re not trying to make piracy easy, but it’s not like Yuzu will be able to muster up enough money for lawyers to match what Nintendo will be spending.

The worst thing that could come out of this is a decision that interoperability isn’t an excuse for circumventing DRM under any circumstances, as that’ll have serious consequences for a bunch of other projects, and Nintendo are likely to want to push for this precedent to be set rather than accepting an out-of-court settlement. On the other hand, Nintendo could mess up and get the opposite precedent set, although if it looks like that’s going to happen, they’re likely to drop the suit.

Illegal number - Wikipedia

Nope, you have to obtain the decryption keys yourself - I spent hours hunting around online for a set of console keys and firmware dump to get the emulator working on my steam deck.

If you own a moddable switch you can dump the keys legally, but I don’t plan on doing that any time soon.

maybe if their games went on sale more…
Maybe if emulating the game wasn't often better than playing it on the only hardware the game is made for...

“Fuck you, here’s a switch port for a Wii U game. It’s $15 more expensive than the original release because fuck you that’s why.”

-Nintendo

Yup. I was in a second hand game shop (cex) a month or so ago and most switch games were only 10 quid cheaper than the e shop. Mario and legend of Zelda where something like 50 pounds. That’s because those games don’t actually drop in price either psychically or on the eShop much.
God I hate Nintendo, I hate them so goddamn much it’s impossible to find words to express myself.
There are so many things that add up overtime. I wouldn’t say I hate them just yet, but I‘be stopped buying their products. The way they go about their business just rubs me the wrong way. If the only way to try to communicate that is disengaging from any of their offerings, be it games or the new switch. Yea, I’m out.
I feel the same. They are really disgusting , greedy and shitty company. I would not spend a single cent on their products.
I will never not acquire Nintendo products on the open ocean.
Why?
This is a excellent comment! All these haters up in here but seldom few list why. I think it’s because their arguments wouldn’t hold up, so they don’t voice them. Just pure rage (useless)
Funny how OP just explained above you, and id wager a good chunk of us feel the way he does. The real question is, why would you condone their actions?
OP of the comment I replied to explained nothing. So I don’t know what you’re talking about, unless you’re just making stuff up. Their comment was nothing but pure rage, and it got a lot of support, much of which couldn’t explain their rage either.
If you have more than a couple of neurons you don’t need me to explain why I hate Nintendo, unless you’re a corporate bootlicker who thinks Nintendo can do no wrong. If you really can’t fathom why anyone would hate them, then all you gotta do is Google “Nintendo anticonsumerism” and you’ll have reading material for the whole week.
I don’t condone anything necessary. What I do do is buy their games, play them on their systems, and have fun. I see you guys in here talking about pirating their games, not having fun, and not buying shit. What, I should condone that?! Get out of here.
This is a thread about Nintendo suing a completely legal Emulator. I do believe you’re the one who should “get out of here”, if you’re going to say Nintendo has every right to do this, when everyone else here disagrees.

Coz they’re assholes.

sues emulator-devs - but puts old roms onto their own products (mini nintendo etc. contained roms that “pirates” had distributed online for years)

never lowers the prices of their games

sues everyone left and right - like Palworld-developers

They issue takedowns on youtube channels for including nintendo game-music or gameplay

and probably more reasons

They didn’t sue Palworld’s creators, but that’s the exception to the norm.

the funniest shit about the paperowrk is that nintendo indirectly says nintendo is doing illegal work because they claim a video game emulator is a piece of software that allows users to unlawfully play pirated video games that were published for a specific console on a general purpose device.

they either have to say NSO/Nes/Snes classic are not emulation, or admit their definition of emulators is not the universally accepted definition of it, else Nintendo just Claimed Nintendo is serving up and charging for an unlawful service that is NSO.

FWIW you can lawfully play pirated games, so that means nothing.
Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us?

Nintendo's stance on emulation has always been a rigid one. As far as the company is concerned, if you're downloading a…

Eurogamer.net

That’s a funny one too me, because they are the original source when you dig your way down, so how are they doing anything wrong there?

Yeah it’s someone else’s work… which isn’t there’s anyways… so isn’t it always nintendos then?

They’re profiting from something they themselves say is illegal.

It’s illegal if you don’t own the rom or decoded it with their keys. If you have the physical copy of the game, and a way to decrypt it, it’s not illegal to play the rom on an emulator.

So it’s not illegal, it becomes illegal when you don’t have the physical copy, or decode it with their stuff.

That’s rather clear evidence that they dumped their own ROM and distributed that. Since they own the rights to that ROM, they’re not distributing it illegally though. They can dump and distribute their ROMs all they want; they own the rights to them.

I’m no legal expert but Nintendo’s argument seems to surround a video game emulator being a tool whose primary use is to facilitate illegal circumvention of DRM and piracy. Nintendo’s use of emulation for a legal means to resell their games on another platform, could suggest otherwise. The possible use of a ROM illegally distributed by a 3rd party as inputs in a legitimate Nintendo emulator (though Nintendo denies this) could help separate the issues between ROMs and emulation, because Nintendo’s emulator isn’t used for piracy.

Nintendo could use a copy of the freely available Yuzu to emulate Switch games on their rumored Switch 2, if they were so inclined, and it would be a legitimate use case.

I cannot even come up with a way to express how goddamn hilarious that is!!
I really want a real explanation on how I’ve caused Nintendo financial harm by format shifting my legally owned games. Especially considering I pay for NSO. At some point there has to be precedent that a pirated download does not equal a lost sale and that the individuals are responsible for the infringement and not the tools.
Thats funny considering they included emulators in official games. nintendolife.com/…/nerd_explains_the_challenge_of…
NERD Explains The Challenge Of Bringing Super Mario Sunshine To Switch

"Optimisation tricks were needed to get the game to run at full speed"

Nintendo Life

The legality of the emulation itself has long been established, but I’ve been concerned for a while that illegal DRM circumvention of the games themselves has been a viable legal avenue. Under the DMCA, even the process to dump your own legally-licensed games has arguably been in a legal grey area for a while now, with how they are locked down. If any method to playing the games become illegal, any unauthorized emulation of games becomes de facto illegal.

I’d cite legal precedent here, but there’s been a substantial right-wing, pro-corporate shift in American courts over time. Who knows how this will go.

Booo! Nintendo sucks! This was decided 30 years ago. Emulation is not illegal.