The thing about #tech #layoffs that people who haven’t been through it often don’t understand is that morale never recovers. The employees who remain will never have the same relationship with that company, bosses or peers.

Watching people you respect pack their stuff and crying on the phone with their spouses is something that never goes away. When I survived a layoff in my 20s I became a “do exactly what the ticket says” person. I stopped suggesting ideas, providing feedback, believing anything a manager told me.

If you are a company considering layoffs, especially a profitable company, you should approach it as “this department will have 100% turnover”. The second I got another job offer I left that company and six months later nobody who had been there at the time of layoffs remained.

I’ve seen that pattern play out multiple times.

@matdevdug Well said. If there is one small upside of these layoffs, hopefully it will help dispel the Silicon Valley mythology that these companies often traffic in.

Free lunch and a foozeball table is a poor substitute for job security and human-focused management.

@ourdumbfuture @matdevdug I have never not been glad that I stayed in academia and turned down opportunities to work at tech companies that don't exist any more.
@matdevdug I got out before this happened. Actually, the whole company was bought out. I should never have been in corporate America.

@matdevdug My gut has been telling me that companies are fooling themselves into thinking 100% turnover is fine, actually, because workers can just be replaced now that so many are on the market, and institutional knowledge didn’t matter that much in the first place (lol).

Sound right?

@anthrocypher @matdevdug Where I work they've included quite a few people with long tenure (>10 yrs) in the layoffs directly - it feels like a deliberate replacement strategy.
@matdevdug

Yeah... It's the whole, "we're destroying your ability to house and feed yourself because speculators won't be happy enough with 'merely profitable'," thing that's especially corrosive.
@ferricoxide @indigoparadox @matdevdug I thought the whole "late stage capitalism" thing referenced that. It's the logical conclusion of the current system, right before it collapses.
@matdevdug huge mood. If I hadn’t painted myself into a corner with old tech that isn’t used anywhere else, I’d probably have bounced from where I’m at right now. We’re down from a team of 23 to a team of 2 and I get mad every time people joke about job-related PTSD because I’m actually living with that. Lately I find myself weighing the pros and cons of spending time learning new tech to catch up to the world vs just shuffling off the mortal coil.
@dave @matdevdug Hey just want to say that I hope you don't mean that last part literally. I'm sure people could learn a lot from you anywhere you go, and besides work isn't everything.
@mh @dave @matdevdug adding to this... Your value is not in just the work you do or technology you know. It's the way you live your life and treat others. Besides most of the knowledge that comes from experience isn't specific to a tech stack, you have a lot to share. I hope you find a better situation or focus that makes you happier.

@matdevdug the first time I went through a #tech #layoff I really struggled with “what did _I_ do wrong?” It took me a long time to recover from that.

My first time as a manager having to lay people off was one of the toughest days of my 35 yr career. A year after that there was 100% turnover in that team, including me.

My current place has had a round of layoffs. We learned to manage employee growth in a way that we haven’t had to do it again. We’re now profitable and have an amazing team.

@matdevdug @dave Went through the dot-com blowup of 2001 and the banking fuckup of 2008 and various other layoffs. Every time, the remaining people spent months mostly with polishing their resumes.

I’ve never seen any upside, since frequently promising projects or client relationships died in those layoffs, certainly eating up any conceivable savings from the lower payroll.

@tsturm @matdevdug @dave
"It’s so... basic," said Gilt. "You make money as it runs down, you make money building it up again, you might even make a little money running it, then you sell it to yourself when it collapses." --Terry Pratchett, *Going Postal*

The goal isn't to run a sustainable business, it's to obtain capital investment and move it around.

@matdevdug 30 years in tech but never worked for a tech company. The last five or so years have helped me see it as a form of blessing.

@bynkii @matdevdug

I'm interested in knowing what field you are in?

I recently moved to healthcare and it moves slower but I like it

@eljorgeabides @matdevdug currently manufacturing. Did healthcare for a short while, but it was an utter clown show of a hospital.

@bynkii @matdevdug

Yeah I'm learning how scary the hospital tech is through my colleagues stories

@matdevdug @femme_mal When I was laid off from a tech co. in 2013 it altered my world view. I had won an award for performance only 2 months earlier! I’ve never trusted an organization to have my back again.

@suzka @matdevdug No profitable company should layoff personnel. Unprofitable companies should do so only after all other cost cutting measures and efficiencies have been attempted and proven ineffective.

Layoffs cost money because they're demoralizing and reduce productivity. They cost more money to implement which doesn't yield more product/service.

Hiring new people in the future also costs $$$; Fortune 100 co I worked for calculated cost of recruit/hire/onboarding at +$50K/new hire.

@femme_mal @suzka @matdevdug

I did an analysis in the early 2000s of cost to hire in telecom, including recruiting, onboarding, training & lower productivity during the first year compared to an 'old hire'. It varied by position but it ranged from 40-80% of total compensation.

That's excluding the cost of the inevitable occasional bad hire, which adds another 50-100%.
At the height of the .com boom, I saw some companies with a bad hire rate >25%.

@johntimaeus @suzka @matdevdug that $50K was an average figure for US hires for a Fortune 100 transnational manufacturing firm about year 2000. It hasn't changed much because of cost savings in process improvement and in stagnant wages at bottom of employment ladder.

In other words that last bit of cost savings came from increased precarity forced on prospective new hires. Likely a 'benefit' of corporations lobbying legislators to keep minimum wage low.

@johntimaeus @femme_mal @suzka @matdevdug I saw the same in the Netherlands at the time. The dotcom bubble started right when there was massive unemployment. The sentiment in the government was that here we have a heap of unemployed people, over there we have a pit of vacancies. Fill the pit with the heap, that will cut down benefit payments and stimulate the economy. Everyone can be a programmer with a little training, right?
@matdevdug
It's the case with all layoffs. Not just your industry. It's Capitalism. If you believe in capitalism, you should cheer layoffs, if not, recognize that you are a worker and make solidarity with other workers. From white collar compatriots to farm laborers.
@matdevdug I have been laid off, survived layoffs, found another job only to go through another round of layoffs. This behavior is endemic to how business is done in the U.S. at least.

@matdevdug
This is a difficult subject for many people who don't work in tech. On the one hand, it's awful that skilled tech workers are treated like so many interchangeable cogs by their executive overlords. But on the other hand, these same workers are beneficiaries of a rapacious, profit extraction machine that is literally undermining civil society: none of the tech workers are complaining before the layoff rounds, when bonuses and stock options are plentiful. These same workers take their outsized income and drive up property and commodity prices to the point of harming their own communities and society at large.

We want to support working people. But please, tech workers, be honest with yourselves about the underbelly of the tech economy: instead of feeding at the trough until the bosses cast you aside, how about more of you save up your bonuses to start your own small businesses, to contribute to your community?
@jstatepost

@strangeculprits @matdevdug @[email protected] you know when you blame the workers and not the system that's not really solidarity, right?

Tech workers are well paid in part to keep therm from unionizing.

@darwinwoodka
Please don't put words in our mouths, we don't blame tech workers for working in tech. However, what those workers do (and *don't* do) with their pay has undeniable consequences for their own communities and society. Two things can be true. BTW, we 100% agree with the notion of unionizing for tech workers, and/or tech worker owned co-ops that can bargain for more stable and secure situations with the FAANG behemoths.
@matdevdug @jstatepost
@darwinwoodka @strangeculprits @matdevdug @jstatepost If no employees can ever be blamed, regardless of behaviour or agreement with the compensation structure, then neither can bosses. Not even the CEO. Reproduction of a system is hard to free oneself from, but the more privilege you have, the more leverage you have. Unfortunately also less incentive, because you have more to lose.

@ahltorp @darwinwoodka @matdevdug @jstatepost ^This. When some people benefit financially from a manifestly unjust system (and we contend that the current tech economy is precisely that), and then commit none of those disproportionate benefits to help offset the harms wrought by that system, please don't ask for our sympathy when that same system does to you what it's always done to the rest of us.

That's not "blaming workers," it's calling out collaborators.

@strangeculprits @matdevdug @jstatepost Or even work in tech but not for a tech company.

@strangeculprits @matdevdug @jstatepost: "how about more of you save up your bonuses to start your own small businesses, to contribute to your community?"

Unfortunately, I have nothing of the social or organisational skills required to set up my own business; were I put into a position where that was the only way for me to operate in society, I'd be completely lost.

@raktheundead
That's a fair point, though we do hope our sentiment isn't lost on you: that the people who call the shots in the tech economy only care about themselves. The sooner more tech workers choose to reject that system --opening a business is one way, but there are others-- the sooner that system stops perverting the rest of the economy.
@matdevdug @jstatepost

@raktheundead @strangeculprits @matdevdug @jstatepost

Gibt es eigentlich ein englisches Wort für Genossenschaft (Raiffeisen-Genossenschaft, Schrebergarten, Genossenschaftsbank, Verein (nicht "Club"), Gewerkschaft (nicht Union), Betriebsrat, Sozialpartnerschaft, soziale Marktwirtschaft, Realpolitik). Klar, es ist möglich, dies auf Englisch zu beschreiben, es gibt Wörter (Lehnwörter oder native Wörter die zur Beschreibung genutzt werden), aber eindeutige Namen, bei denen alle sofort ohne Erklärung wissen, was gemeint ist?

@Life_is
We think the closest English term is 'worker owned cooperative'
@raktheundead @matdevdug @jstatepost

@matdevdug I worked at an office that abruptly let go one of its more talented workers. I could hear her sobbing as she packed up her belongings.

Later, as I started to get enough freelance income to leave, I left that job without the customary two weeks notice.

@matdevdug yeah, because these cuts are always executed by people who are not paid to do the right thing - they are paid to make books look good. They might even doing very well knowing they are destroying any future company might have. But this self sabotage is absurdly encouraged and paid off by coffers of the dying company.

@matdevdug got through one last year and basically my manager who i deeply respected and who was one of the key points that kept me there got fired.

We had profits. So many people got fired cause the profits werent high enough.
None of he executives did resign or anything alike, even though the profit loss was baiscally their fault as they decided to overhire during covid times.
I went from "putting a lot of Energy and resources into this job" to absolutely hating it and burning out within a few months.

And bottom line decided to never ever work in this industry again.

@matdevdug my current company did layoffs back in June with pathetic severance packages.. and people have been quitting enmasse ever since.

The other thing to remember is that many of these former employees will end up at customers or potential customers who will now NEVER look at your product and will actively discourage other people from even taking your calls...

There is a knock on effect to layoffs.

For two weeks severance I'm not signing a non disparagement agreement.

@ShredderFeeder @matdevdug

I was recently talking with a friend who was looking at similar products from four companies. I did a quick search and saw that three of the four had recently done large layoffs, while the fourth was hiring. Guess which product I recommended?

@johntimaeus @matdevdug Also - don't recomend companies that do stock buy backs. That's just a way to prop up their stock prices artifically, it's a huge lie.
@ShredderFeeder @johntimaeus @matdevdug stock buybacks concentrate equity. How is that artificial?
@Qbitzerre @johntimaeus @matdevdug it increases demand artificially. Provides a temporary boost in value, usually so CEOs can cash out and buy another Gulfstream. #eattherich

@ShredderFeeder @johntimaeus @matdevdug CEO pay not pertinent to my question. Does it change total capitalization? Does decreasing the numerator disproportionately decrease the denominator? Should it?

Beyond that, would shareholders prefer dividends or unrealized gains? Is it more prudent to hoard retained earnings in the absence of asset deployment opportunities related to core business?

Depends on corporate mission, no?

@Qbitzerre @johntimaeus @matdevdug Corporate mission is to make money at all costs at the expense of others. That's every corporate mission.

When companies have a huge surplus they have two options, they can invest in the people who work for them, or they can make sure the CEO's get fat bonuses.

Guess which one they'll always choose.

@ShredderFeeder @johntimaeus @matdevdug they have more than two options. I'm as jaded by strip 'em and flip 'em private equity actors and their ilk as anyone can be. But the boundless cynicism is tiresome too. We live in a modern industrial society that wasn't built by singing kumbayah.
@Qbitzerre @johntimaeus @matdevdug I've met quite a lot of CEO types in my life...Not a single one of them I'd trust as far as I could throw them. They'd murder their own mother if the shareholders demanded it.

@ShredderFeeder @matdevdug

Non disparagement agreements don’t always have the effect a company wants. I had a coworker a few jobs ago who was asked about using a product from one of his job.

“I can’t answer any questions about the product because they made me sign a non disparagement when I left”

We all assumed it was a shitshow and chose something else.

@matdevdug Companies can't empathize. You are better addressing the novices that might think they are alone in the realization that they were minions of an actual evil organization. (Driven mostly by greed an selfish goals, sadly, the most common type by far)
To them: Welcome, remember you yourself need not be evil nor alone.

@matdevdug it's not just those left behind. I was laid off back in 2001 and it's coloured my relationship with every employer since.

We broke our backs for that company, and they dismissed us without a second thought. Now I expect every employer to do the same and plan accordingly.

@matdevdug
Did your experience with layoffs change your relationship with just that company, or did it make you reluctant to trust any similar company? I confess that after my treatment by one tech company I left the industry and can't really trust any similar company again.
@matdevdug Bingo ………. Have seen it first hand; bond of trust GONE forever.
@matdevdug this seems like one example of the callousness that’s generally quite pervasive. For sure, there are better companies but it seems like there are strong countervailing forces that make it difficult to establish or maintain environments that support people thriving

@matdevdug I have been through it multiple times. It would appear that it is not a suicide pact, further away from Silicon Valley. There is a bit more activation energy involved in switching employers.

But it's still not good.

I have been through enough that my default is to assume that the company wants to bleed me dry and throw me away. Never stop updating your resume.

It would also be great if we had a professional cartel that could successfully embargo these profit-goosing dipshits.

@matdevdug my last k public sector) employer handled a big budget cut with a round of layoffs.

A humane place would offer a severance package, wait to see the effect on payroll count, and then do layoffs after if necessary. They did the reverse. I'm 100% comfortable it was because the deputy minister in charge was a vindictive petty little asshole, and he didn't want to risk the people he resented leaving with dignity. He wanted them humiliatingly escorted out by security.

@matdevdug This has been my experience, too. And they always end with something like, "Don't worry. We don't plan on any more layoffs." ...until next time.

@matdevdug

There are pluses to these mass layoffs in tech and journalism:

1. Other industries now have access to skilled labor for long delayed IT infrastructure projects.

These industries have not been able to compete in recruiting in years.

These workers were in short supply for too long because the big five hogged the labor market.

The public sector in particular is benefitting from these counterproductive layoffs.

2. It releases skilled journalists from mainstream ...

1/3

2/3

... media who suppress news about a growing anti-democracy movement funded by billionaires.

Feral, ticked off journalists with time on their hands is a boon to democracy.

3. Profitable companies doing pre-emptive layoffs for a "hasn't happened yet" recession.

It is being orchestrated by the financiers of the fossil fuel industry in an election year. These mass layoffs are politically motivated.

https://fortune.com/2023/01/23/christopher-hohn-rishi-sunak-old-boss-tci-fund-management-letter-to-alphabet-sundar-pichai/

Anti-democracy advocates of Jan 6 like Larry Ellison are ...

Rishi Sunak’s old hedge fund boss, who paid himself $1.9 million a day last year, wants Alphabet to lay off more staff and slash pay

Alphabet is already planning to reduce its workforce by around 6%, but Rishi Sunak's old boss at TCI Fund Management wants Sundar Pichai to go further.

Fortune