@mgiraldo has moved
Mar HicksI’m old enough to remember when smoking (and smoke) was everywhere, and the idea that smokers might ever be asked or made to stop was seen as absurd. Many kids (including me) got horrible bronchitis every single year and had other sorts of breathing problems all the time. Many parents (and other adults) died early.
Nowadays we see this for the major problem it always was, but few would admit that it was at the time—and fewer still back then were ready to accept the solutions that needed to be legislated to solve this huge public health problem. And yet, we know this was a major public health victory and a positive change looking back.
Glad to see the people who are connecting the dots. A lot of people are really missing the point though huh🙃
protglitch.scr@histoftech In the past I might have humored the smoking section at Denny's at 2am after a concert because one of our party smoked. Recently, I left an outdoor concert early and mildly panicked, because it was still a bit enclosed and there was no escape from the cigarette smoke, even with the giant fans that were supposed to help ventilate. It was their final tour, and I'm sad to have missed the end
cwicseolfor (has moved!)@protman @histoftech Particulate respirators help with this. Among other things. You can get them with charcoal nuisance filters too scrub the smell, too.
@cwicseolfor @protman I see what u did there…
@histoftech @protman It's just that they're terribly comfortable. I think everyone will be wearing them in the future.
@protman Uncontrovertibly a declarative style, but probably not the most respectful of fellow concert-goers unless you have back-row seats….
In seriousness the last concert I went to, I didn’t finish it in time to wear it, but had been drafting a sculpted black leather cover - a lot of the crowd was pretty goth. I absolutely hate smoke, con-/ concert-crud, and covid, a respirator dodges all three & is massively more convenient & fun than distracted misery both during & after a show.
mav@histoftech
The frustrating part is this may be one of the last public health victories - we *definitely* could not do this in 2024.
The frustrating part is this may be one of the last public health victories - we *definitely* could not do this in 2024.
@mav the point is it didn’t seem possible then, either. People saying we can’t make similar public health changes today are forgetting what it was like before these now-commonsense changes were made. They did not seem possible, until they were.
@histoftech
I guess. It just seems like we're a *long way* removed from a time when anyone cared about public health. Public health is essentially a political death sentence now.
I guess. It just seems like we're a *long way* removed from a time when anyone cared about public health. Public health is essentially a political death sentence now.
FediThing 
I'm sure building the first modern sewer systems seemed way too difficult, with digging up entire sections of towns etc.
But it gave us such better hygiene and quality of life, no one would choose to build a town without sewers now.
nicod_@histoftech Totally agree.
Time to legislate another major public health problem now, alcohol.
Time to legislate another major public health problem now, alcohol.
David G. Smith@nicod @histoftech Erm,… “Prohibition” didn’t have the intended results. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States
Violet MadderThe fossil fuel companies are using the same PR firms Big Tobacco did.
Which keeps me wondering why they hadn't ALL been locked up or yeeted into the sun already.
Court Cantrell does not comply@histoftech Same thing with seatbelts, from what I understand. I don't remember a time before wearing them was legally enforced.
Carol McKay (she / her)@histoftech smokers were selfish arseholes and would abuse anyone who had the audacity to request the ability to breath clean air. Yes, it is truly amazing how far we have come. There still are a few of them around behaving that way unfortunately.
@CarolIsHere so glad to hear you’re wearing a mask 😷
Bradford Fults@histoftech Wow.
Change “smoking (and smoke)” to “spreading COVID (and SARS-CoV-2)” and the resemblance to our current situation is shockingly accurate.
Hopefully we do solve it in the future.
Clive ThompsonYep yep -- it's a great example of a truly life-saving and life-improving piece of public policy
It needed to be fought for, and hard! There were so many forces arrayed against policy measures to curb smoking -- a billion-dollar tobacco industry lobbying from above, and at the grassroots, untold millions of folks addicted to nicotine
My mom smoked for 50 years, got lung cancer, had a successful operation (thank you Canadian health care system) ... yet still couldn't *fully* quit
Almost up to her very last years, she was sneaking a cigarette or two a day
Eventually she passed away from COPD, the slow decline of lung function often bought about by long-term smoking
Thankfully, though, all the public policy to discourage smoking worked -- neither I nor my two sisters ever smoked
@clive sorry about your mom :( I can definitely relate.
Josh@histoftech I still remember, as a kid, wondering how anyone expected the smoke to stay in the smoking sections when it clearly did not.
Darwin Woodka@jcmrva @histoftech I always suggested we enclose the smokers in plexiglass. So I was thrilled when I visited Japan and saw the smoker enclosures
@darwinwoodka @histoftech This reminds me of the smoking room at a previous job.
The walls were yellow.
The walls were not painted yellow.
@jcmrva @darwinwoodka @histoftech
My *high school* had a smoking room that they only shut down a few years before I started in 1999.
@aninfamoushistorian @jcmrva @darwinwoodka yep. my high school allowed kids to smoke outside at lunch as long as they were 16 :/
Ehproque has moved@histoftech @aninfamoushistorian @jcmrva @darwinwoodka my high school allowed students to smoke in the corridors until I graduated… in 2000!
@darwinwoodka @jcmrva we had those in the US too. In airports. I guess punishing smokers wasn’t really what I was hoping to convey as the point of the (hi)story.
Bill, organizer of stuff@histoftech @darwinwoodka @jcmrva In fairly recent travels, I was both shocked and disgusted to find that they still exist! As of earlier this year, at least, there are _still_ a few indoor smoking rooms in US airports...
run_atalanta -> beige.party@darwinwoodka @jcmrva @histoftech Wow, and instead of bumming a cigarette off a stranger, they could just walk into one of those and get a second hand hit off the ambient smoke!
KT controls miniature worlds@jcmrva @histoftech
Me too! I came up with a phrase that my mom eagerly adopted: Cigarette smoke does not obey a line painted on the floor.
Me too! I came up with a phrase that my mom eagerly adopted: Cigarette smoke does not obey a line painted on the floor.
Roadskater, Ph.D.@histoftech It was only about 20 years ago that smoking was banned in NYC bars. Smokers hated it until they discovered the camaraderie of hanging around outside and bitching about The Man with others who would listen. Non-smokers were like, I can breathe! Also, I won't have to throw all my clothes in the wash when I get home!
steeznson@roadskater @histoftech I like this way of looking at it. As an occasional smoker I enjoy going outside to the smoking area and the notion of smoking indoors - even in my own home - is a little bit gross. I was ambivalent when these policies were introduced in the UK but with the benefit of hindsight it has been a net pisitive.
@steeznson @histoftech My brother the musician thought it was great when smoking was banned in bars and clubs in California about 25 years ago because it cut way down on his dry cleaning bills.
James Trickle uP@roadskater @histoftech I recall going to one large nightclub in Portland with balconies to see Squirrel Nut Zippers when they were popular in the early or mid 2000s. I was used to tolerating smoking at some nightclub venues, coming home and leaving my clothes in the garage to clean the next day. I simply couldn't breathe that night, and had to leave within 15 minutes. Sadly, never saw them again. In 2009 Oregon banned all indoor smoking everywhere.
Christopher Walker@histoftech I still marvel at the sheer stupidity when I think back to that time. Every car, every airplane seat, every restaurant table had an ashtray. Concerts, bars, and waiting rooms were in a constant cloud of acrid smoke. We would stand indoors in hallways and have a smoke before going into class at my college. It was so gross. It doesn’t seem real now.
@cswalker21 though it was extremely profitable for some major industries… and believed to be profitable for many others… <stares in comparison with today’s public health situation>🫤
Brian Moakley@cswalker21 @histoftech I grew up in a non smoker home but my parents kept ash trays around whenever a smoker dropped by. Seems absolutely crazy now. Especially since I had asthma as a kid.
Jim Luther@histoftech @dangillmor I'm old enough to remember, too. My life-long smoking father died at age 76 and I still miss him. I followed his bad example for a decade (quit about 40 years ago) and every year I smoked, I had terrible sore throats. The best thing I probably did for my health was quit.
Doctor Memory@histoftech @jwz I can vividly remember the screaming when Bloomberg pushed the smoking ban through in NYC. It was going to kill the restaurant and nightclub industries! Every bar in the city was going to close!
None of which happened. Now people — including smokers! — would call you a crazy person if you suggested bringing it back.
There’s a moral or two about letting change-averse weirdos shout down obviously good policies that I wish we’d learned.
mhoye@memory @histoftech @jwz People picketed government offices in Ontario to protest drinking and driving laws. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xcQIoh3FQQ
Mandatory seatbelts were communism. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/june-22-1987-albertans-prepare-for-seatbelt-law-1.3649730
People React To DUI Laws(1980s News Report)
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echarlie@histoftech I can see arguments against ABS, Airbags (90s mandates?), backup cameras (2010s), bumper crash standards (70s) as optional (thus unnecessary) safety features that drive up car prices. But the complaint should be that FMVSS 108 isn't in compliance with the international standard then.
I think the largest safety improvement would be adopting the ECE standard for headlights (which has strong glare-control provisions). New cars make me more dangerous on the road as I can't see.
groxx@mhoye @memory @histoftech @jwz people *still* label seatbelt laws as communism, sadly. Bicycle helmets too.
Andres@groxx @mhoye @memory @histoftech @jwz Okay, but one of these is not like the other.. 🤔
https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/counterintuitive-argument-against-bicycle-helmet-laws
A Counterintuitive Argument Against Bicycle Helmet Laws
New York City mayor Bill DeBlasio recently faced a backlash from bike safety advocates for supporting mandatory helmet laws for the city’s bike-share riders. Advocates arguing with a mayor is nothing new. What’s surprising is their counterintuitive argument: biking advocates, who believe safety is paramount and who typically wear helmets themselves, argue that the helmet requirement actually makes cyclists less safe.
@Andres4NY @mhoye @memory @histoftech @jwz less different than you'd hope.
> Studies have shown that wearing helmets while cycling reduces the risk of head and brain injuries by about 70 percent, and regular bike commuters should make the decision to wear a helmet, no question.
That's roughly how effective car seat belts are too, for "major" and fatality rates. i.e. significant and probably worth legislation.
@Andres4NY @mhoye @memory @histoftech @jwz part of the confounding factor at the moment is the bike-shares have a very large financial incentive to push for no helmet requirements. There are billions on the line, they absolutely push for studies showing stuff to their benefit.
@groxx I think it would be reasonable to require helmets for bicycles *when operated on the road*, much like how lights and reflectors (and in some locales, bells) are required. The UCI mandated helmets in their events in the 90s and got a lot of pushback for that, but ultimately, unless you're regularly biking at speeds over 30km/hr and/or sharing the road with cars, your risk from not wearing a helmet are pretty low. Consider the Netherlands, where biking is ubiquitous, and helmets are rare.
@notecharlie yeah, this feels like a very reasonable tradeoff to me, and it further encourages blocking off traffic and separating bikes.
@groxx yeah. and I know in virginia, even light requirements change depending on road speed---on roads with speed limits up to 30mph (bike paths are curiously under-regulated here)---only a rear red reflector is required at night (atop a front light), while over 30mph requires a rear red or amber light.
@groxx @mhoye @memory @histoftech @jwz Read the rest of it. This isn't about helmet safety, it's about helmet *laws*.
Seatbelt laws are unabashedly positive, public-health wise. Bicycle helmet laws, not so much.
@Andres4NY @mhoye @memory @histoftech @jwz I did.
A cursory skim of their links doesn't even back up their summary on those links. E.g. the first study they link as showing a decrease shows the opposite:
> Results. In PBSP cities, the proportion of head injuries among bicycle-related injuries increased from 42.3% before PBSP implementation to 50.1% after (P < .01)
There are a number of ways that I think the argument is valid, but study details matter and results don't always generalize.
@Andres4NY @mhoye @memory @histoftech @jwz e.g. more bikes on the road decreases accidents per mile because people are more used to seeing them. More bike shares is more good. That seems pretty likely to be true.
Bike share riders ride more slowly. Slower biking has fewer and less severe injuries.
Both of those can easily make more bike share use imply lower accident rates per person/mile/whatever, but that's not the same as implying that helmets are not worth requiring.
Garrett Wollman@groxx @Andres4NY Helmet laws discourage cycling. That is reason in itself not to have them: the benefit from avoiding one specific kind of injury is more than outweighed by the harm from discouraging marginal cycle trips.
@wollman @groxx Yeah, and Smith's piece was mostly focused on bike share because that was the topic of the day. But there's plenty more out there showing that helmet laws don't actually improve safety in general. Eg, from that same Smith piece, the following link breaks it down: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-05/why-bike-helmet-laws-don-t-work
Again, this is about one type of public health law not being like the rest. Smoking bans? Seatbelt laws? Motorcycle helmet laws? Clearly all very positive. Bicycle helmet laws? A very gray area.
@wollman @Andres4NY I'd be willing to bet you'd find lots of arguments that seatbelt laws discouraged driving too. Yet in aggregate we decided it's worth it.