HeavenlyPossum@rameshgupta @AlliFlowers @QasimRashid @pewnack
Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu has suggested using nuclear weapons against Gaza and has called for the resettlement of Israeli settlers and soldiers in Gaza.
Billiglarper@HeavenlyPossum @rameshgupta @AlliFlowers @QasimRashid @pewnack Actually, he said when asked it was "one of the possibilities" and got critizised and suspended over it. So its not the line of the government. Nor the population. Though having these stupidly cruel extremist as part of the goverment is a hugh problem.
Meanwhile hamas government program is genocidal, its actions are genocidal. It employs systematic rape and targeted killing of babies. Genocidal actions are praised and not punished
@billiglarper @AlliFlowers @rameshgupta @QasimRashid @pewnack
Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and Intelligence Minister Gila Gamliel have separately advocated for ethnically cleansing Gaza. Gamliel’s ministry circulated a paper on expelling the population of Gaza into the Sinai desert.
@HeavenlyPossum @AlliFlowers @rameshgupta @QasimRashid @pewnack No, it was a leaked single-author draft from inside the Intelligence ministry, wasn't it? Not a government position or even a proposal? Meanwhile Bibi and a lot of other government officials made it clear that they are opposed to an Israeli occupation of Gaza. They could be lying, of course. But what are the indicators for that?
To me, it looks like you are cherry-picking your facts to support your worldview and focus.
Ramesh #NotGoingBack⬆️
[Rethreading, as thread was broken]
@HeavenlyPossum is a #TrollInAHole who has an endless list of little turds like the above from which he will pick one turdlet at a time and keep pivoting to waste your entire day.
Just click through that hashtag to see a sample of his one day's work
Even his bio says "But then, I repeat myself" — Fair warning 😂 and I wish I had heeded that earlier
@AlliFlowers @rameshgupta @billiglarper @QasimRashid @pewnack
Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter said that Israel is “rolling out the Gaza Nakba.”
And here's the complete quote:
"Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter (Likud) was asked in a news interview on Saturday whether the images of northern Gaza Strip residents evacuating south on the IDF’s orders are comparable to images of the Nakba. He replied: “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba. From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war – as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza – with masses between the tanks and the soldiers.”"
That’s not any better.
MK Revital Gotliv:
“Topple buildings!! Bomb unconsciously!! Stop with this impotence. You have [the] ability. There is wall-to-wall international legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time there is no room for mercy!”
@HeavenlyPossum It makes quite a difference. And kollektiva.social gives you the characters to give a proper quote. Yet you chose to distort it.
That's even without considering basics of political communication. A politician wanting to do something doesn't mean they have the power to do so. And politicians stating an intent doesn't necessarily mean they are sincere about it.
There's little truth when you downplay Hamas enacting genocide on all levels, yet generalize every Israeli fringe idiot.
I have not downplayed Hamas’ violence; the people I am citing are not fringe idiots; Israeli officials at every level of the state have been explicit about their intent and open about their actions, and all these quote reveal an atmosphere in which all these officials expect no reproach for calling for genocide.
Col. Yogev Bar-Shesht, deputy head of the Civil Administration:
“Whoever returns here, if they return here after, will find scorched earth. No houses, no agriculture, no nothing. They have no future.”
MK Zvi Sukkot:
“A picture of victory is Nakba. A Nakba in Gaza. Something very unambiguous, [that will make it] very clear that you don’t mess with the state of Israel.”
MK Yitzhak Kroizer:
“The Gaza Strip must be flattened…. It’s not a matter of [using] an atom bomb, I think Minister Eliyahu had a very clear message: Gaza has to be wiped off the map, in order to send a message to all our enemies and those who seek us harm…. In Gaza, we have to be clear, there are no innocent [civilians]. There are no “uninvolved” people.”
Former head of National Security Council and Former Head of the Shin Bet’s Southern Region department, current head of the Misgav Institute, Meir Ben-Shabbat:
“The Israeli operation must turn Hamas’s surprise attack into a Nakba for Gaza. The IDF must crush Hamas, kill every member of the organisation and exterminate everything related to it. The pattern of surgical operations must be abandoned and we must say goodbye to practices like ‘knock on the roof’.”
@HeavenlyPossum Oh, you have. And the support for hamas violence in Gaza and elsewhere.🤷🏻♂️ You might even have made your arguments in good faith. I actually respect you trying to not generalize.
But it contrasts starkly with how you quote Mafdal assholes to me. They are 7 out of 120 KMs. And yes, them being part of government is bad.
And that goes even more so for "former somethings". Are they driving policy? Hardly.
I have never once supported Hamas or its violence.
I will say this: I appreciate the insight into the mentality of someone willing to work so hard to apologize for horrific and inexcusable violence. There is no amount of explicit statements, no weight of evidence, that will convince you. Each piece of evidence is downplayed, diminished, excused, dismissed. The evidence just…doesn’t exist for you. It’s impressive.
RDThey're complaining about cherry-picking while failing to realize we're in a fucking cherry orchard.
Israeli leaders won’t *shut up* about their desire for revenge, their desire to ethnically cleansed Gaza, their desire to hurt so many Palestinians and inflict so much suffering that Israel would never again face a threat for them, their desire to cause so much harm that Palestinians in the West Bank don’t get any ideas, their desire to annex Gaza and resettle the ruins with Israelis.
Bilal Barakat 🍉@HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @billiglarper
You all have to understand that in Germany, you get to pat yourself on the back and think of yourself as a righteous, even-handed person if you as much as acknowledge that Palestinians can have rights under the right circumstances.
Of course this actually has nothing to do with actually viewing them as having *the same rights* as Israelis. That is literally inconceivable to entertain as a notion. Crazy talk.
In German political and elite cultural discourse, Palestinian rights *can only ever be considered through the lens of what they mean for Israel*. There is no such thing as unconditional rights that Palestinians simply have on their own terms. I am willing to bet a thousand euros that in the entire post-war history of German parliamentary proceedings, there has literally not been a single mention of Palestinian rights that wasn't qualified in this way.
Since human rights are meant to be inalienable, and individual human rights do not in fact depend on what second or third parties in turn want, Palestinians are demonstrably not granted the status of fully human in this discourse in that concrete sense. You will not get a German politician to bring the simple sentence “There are rights that Palestinians have regardless of what those rights mean for Israel." over their lips, even though that is a legally indisputable fact, and these same people will appeal to Israeli rights all the time without the slightest regard for that those imply for Palestinians.
Equal application of rights is inconceivable, unthinkable, and unsayable in this discourse. Not one of these people could even begin to formulate a general right to self-defence that they would be willing to grant to both Israelis and Palestinians on equal terms. Because the inescapable logical conclusion and practical implications cannot be countenanced, even asking the question must be treated as beyond the pale.
And because when pressed to commit to a single set of explicit standards that they are willing to apply equally, they can’t, these people will evade and deflect and start talking about this or that but will never answer what should be an easy question for anyone with a principled moral stance.
And of course not only are Palestinian rights intrinsically contingent on the Israeli perspective in this worldview, there is also a natural hierarchy. That Israeli rights trump the equivalent Palestinian rights goes without question, obviously. But way beyond that, it is effectively German state doctrine that:
"Imaginary rights of the Israeli state trump actual Palestinian individual rights”,
and of course
"The right of Israelis to *feel* secure trumps the right of Palestinians to *be* secure.”
At the end of the day, it all comes down to this. While some of these people may sincerely prefer Palestinians not to be mass-murdered if possible, if you put a gun to their head and they had to choose between a genocide of Palestinians or a genocide of Israelis, then regardless of relative numbers, their answer would be the former, without hesitation, no questions, no conditions, no reservations. They would not experience a moral dilemma. Racists have it easier in that way. Everything else is just a distraction from this inescapable truth.
@HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @billiglarper The point being, of course, that when people then don’t want to admit that the distinction between first and second-class humans they are undeniably making is not a priori racism, they have to try and convince themselves that it is based on their superior discerning judgement of the moral merit of these groups.
That’s when you end up with these grotesque contortions whereby the people who readily admit they pursue mass murder are assumed to “not really mean it” (because “they are like me”) and reality-defying excuses like “we’re only ethnically cleansing these people for their own safety and if on their supposedly sage passage they get shot in the head point blank we’re happy to say Oops! if someone reports on it” are accepted at face value and the people getting murdered “had it coming”, because maybe they were thinking mean things about the people who murdered their family. Because the supposed moral merit has to be made to fit the assumption, reality be damned. This story is as old as racism itself, of course.
@HeavenlyPossum @billiglarper @RD4Anarchy
Of course, this approach perfectly mirrors the approach of Neo-Nazi parties in the West. “It's just a [actually: the 100th] bad apple!”. “The person already got a gentle slap on the wrist when we realised people had actually heard him, will you shut up already?”. “He shouldn't have used those words, but the main point is actually correct!". "You're just quoting his ‘Heil Hitler’ completely out of context!”. "That person doesn't even have an official position" etc. etc.
The “except Palestine" left in places like Germany has no one to blame but itself when the Nazis return to power. Those pseudo-leftists (like the German Greens) are going out of their way to encourage the public to think the way those people want them to. Not just that neither facts nor principled moral stances matter in the least when the victims are second-class humans, but that you can say and do whatever you want about them, no matter how inhumane and despicable, as long as you offer even a transparently disingenuous pseudo-justification, no matter how flimsy.
@HeavenlyPossum @billiglarper This is settled now. On incitement, there already is a definitive determination that (a) these statements *are* incitement to genocide, (b) their content and sources establish plausible intent of state policy, and (c) they are sufficiently severe that they must be *punished* in order to be in compliance with the genocide convention. Since Friday, these are now established legal facts.
@billiglarper, you have to spend the rest of your life with the knowledge that you’re the kind of person who chose to be so blinded by racial supremacist bias that you tried to hand-wave away statements that are court-certified incitement to genocide. With the knowledge that your instinct is to treat Israelis as deserving reality-bending benefit of the doubt and impunity and Palestinians as not deserving equal protection of the law.
Live with that.
You are making things up:
"62. The Court is not called upon, for the purposes of its decision on the request for the
indication of provisional measures, to establish the existence of breaches of obligations under the
Genocide Convention, but to determine whether the circumstances require the indication of
provisional measures for the protection of rights under that instrument. As already noted, the Court
cannot at this stage make definitive findings of fact [...]"
@billiglarper You're pathetic and grasping at straws. They ordered Israel to stop incitement, ergo they found there has been incitement going on. The judges themselves cited statements you tried to minimise. You're a court-certified apologist for genocide incitement and deserve no-one's time. We are done here.
After several weeks, you come back to this. You post untrue statements. You insult me.
And I'm the one who's pathethic and grasping at straws, because you didn't like a direct quote from the #ICJ ruling?
Yes, we are done here.
@HeavenlyPossum You we’re unmentioned in the response, but fyi there was ZERO recognition of having been proven wrong by the ICJ. That’s also why I bother writing now: you might be interested to hear just how absurdly the German media are spinning Friday‘s finding. They are literally telling people the lie that the court has made no determination whatsoever yet. It’s pure “Nothing to see here, move along…” 🙄
@HeavenlyPossum I mean, how fucking DELUSIONAL does someone have to be to try and continue disputing specifically the point on incitement THAT EVEN THE HAND-PICKED ISRAELI JUDGE CONCEDED??!
Admitting they’re wrong would be catastrophic to their sense of being a good guy on the right side of history. It would mean admitting to having sided with and defended genocide.
>>That's even without considering basics of political communication. A politician wanting to do something doesn't mean they have the power to do so. And politicians stating an intent doesn't necessarily mean they are sincere about it.<<
Pretty fucked-up system you describe there. Maybe we should dump it.
As if anarchists weren't the biggest posers around. 😁
But it actually matters. It's not like people wouldn't debate wether the threats of annihilation against in Israel 1967 were not just posturing. Or which deal offers were actually sincere or not. And that's just the past.
Looking right now past rhetorics and anger at what's actually going and being put into action right now is imho important.
I'm tired of shouting matches on Mastodon.
>>Looking right now past rhetorics and anger at what's actually going and being put into action right now is imho important.<<
Except when applied to Israeli politicians, apparently.
>>I'm tired of shouting matches on Mastodon.<<
Fuck off then. Nobody is forcing you to stay.
Just mind-boggling. Leaders of a state committing horrific violence keep saying “we like horrific violence and want more horrific violence” but somehow we should not treat that as an indication of anything.
Imagine the sort of tantrum these trolls would throw if someone excused equivalent statements by Hamas or even non-Hamas Palestinians.
Right?
Those Israeli politicians don't really mean what they're saying, but every last Palestinian child must be punished for Hamas' charter.
@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum Nice twist of words. Nevermind.
You accused me of supporting Hamas so I don’t think you have a leg to stand on when it comes to “twisting words.”
@billiglarper @HeavenlyPossum @AlliFlowers @[email protected] @QasimRashid @pewnack Oh, the irony of that last sentence!…