blahsayOffering solutions is annoying
I was way too old when I learned that you should ask if someone wants advice or just wants to vent. “Are we fixing or bitching?” is what I ask my best friend nowadays and it’s made us less likely to butt heads when one of us just wants to talk shit to get it out.
I feel like that would be the wrong question to ask my wife while she’s venting.
I always ask “is this a rant or are you asking for a solution?” Same question but worded in a way that isn’t going to cause problems.
Yeah I guess it depends on the person you’re talking to. Most people I’ve asked the question will usually laugh and say, “we’re bitching right now.”
I respond with, “bitch away.”
If feel like us guys are at a disadvantage here. All our lives were are told not to complain unless we bring a solution, not to cry, get up, keep moving.
Then suddenly the thought pattern we have been trained on all our lives turns out to not be healthy for supporting others and it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Not saying it’s wrong, just hard.
it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Listening is helping. It took me a while to get that, but we’re helping just by being quiet.
Yes, but there's a disconnect between helping directly and helping indirectly. Listening is indirect help, passive help. It's helping simply by existing, which is antithetical to the above commenters train of logic.
I'm not saying you're wrong, or that it's not something that people should learn to do... but it's not always something you can solve by making that connection.
AtaraxiaMany people don’t want advice and that’s fine. I complain not because I want them to fix it but because it helps me organize my thoughts and verify that my complaints are valid so that I can see if it’s something I can fix myself, often though complaining about bad things that I cannot fix.
I am perfectly capable of handling problems as an adult, but people need to vent so they can actually focus on a solution.
Listening is indirect help, passive help. It’s helping simply by existing
Not in my experience. The listener is helping the speaker organize their thoughts, work through their feelings, and (in some cases) decide on a course of action. The listener needs to ask questions, understand the speaker, and help them sort things out.
In a spouse or friend situation, the listener is probably also providing emotional support. Which can be immensely helpful, since it validates the speaker.
There’s also follow up. The listener should talk to the speaker and see how their feelings have evolved.
Yup. It’s akin to “not making a choice is itself a choice”. It doesn’t feel like it is, but can be equally impactful.
UsernameblankfacePerhaps everyone wants to vent a while before they get a solution, but men aren’t allowed to do that.
I think my problem is also we’re told to be empathetic and emotionally present. So what we’re being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I find this much more difficult than solving whatever the problem is, because, maybe I’m weird, but I feel pretty much all the suffering around me as if it’s happening to me.
what we’re being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I know that isn’t actually what people think they are asking for, but it sure feels like it so often.
Thanks for putting this into words for me.
I’m a problem solver. I know how to solve those problems!
It took years of marriage before it was pointed out that’s not what the complainer wants.
FuglyDuckStep one: get lighter fluid.
Step two: set desk on fire.
Step three: quit.
Step four: woah, hold on I was just joking!
(Well, about the fire at any rate…)
SotuandusoLighter than what?
In case you were seriously asking, “lighter fluid” is just fuel/gas to quickly (an accelerant) start a fire. So the fuel you might find in a cigarette lighter. Typically when people say “lighter fluid”, in this case, they mean the giant squirt bottle that you use on a barbecue pit to get the coals to light faster.
For anyone struggling with this, two hints that might help you frame your role better:
Listening is the solution. By trying to solve what your SO told you, you are actually trying to solve the wrong problem. Their real problem is that their brain needs to say things aloud to someone in order to correctly process it's own thoughts. Therapists make a frickin' living off of that quirk of our brains and it's the actual problem they come to you with. Even better: By listening you can not only advise on solutions, you can be the solution! Neat, huh?
Listening and solving aren't mutually exclusive. If you stick to listening first, your SO might actually come to a point where your advice is wanted. Pro tip: Once their thoughts slow down, ask if they want to hear what you think about the issue. From my experience, the answer will be "yes" very often. That way, your thoughts will actually reach your SO and not get blocked by frustration outright.
mriormroThem’s a lot of rules. I think I’ll just choose to remain single.
Choose’s doing a lot of work in that sentence ;)
Or yet another way to look at it is that when people are venting it’s not the actual problem that they’re venting about it’s the uncomfortable emotions that come about as a result of problem. Very usually, someone is doing something that makes their lives harder but it is within a very specific environment, e.g. work, school, some kind of committee, where there are rules against settling disputes by right of arms. So even though I might have a really elegant solution for ‘solving’ that particular dispute, what I tend to be listening to long term tends to be, 'Coworkers… can’t live with 'em, can’t kill ‘em’. To which the correct answer is obviously not ‘You could solve that problem with Piranha Solution - removes organic material from the substrate’, it’s ‘Yes, we do have to put up with annoying people for a long time sometimes.’
wrath_of_grungesome many years ago my wife and i had a conversation about this.
sometimes it needs to be communicated to me that she wants to vent. this is different than seeking solutions to a given problem.
vamputerI think that’s an important thing that seems to get overlooked when this topic comes up. It’s a two-way street- if you just want to vent, be sure to say so. Don’t get upset when your partner doesn’t just assume that’s what you want.
Of course, the “two-way street” thing really needs to be emphasized, since the person venting is likely frustrated and can’t always be expected to be clearheaded enough to remember to communicate it properly. Also, if all they ever want to do is vent, y’know…maybe that’s a pattern you should pick up on eventually
Murais“Before you start, are you looking for solutions, or are you looking for someone to listen?”
This is an essential relationship skill/concept. Learn it and watch all your relationships improve.
“Are you solution minded or still in the feelings phase?”
Rubber ducking, not just for programmers. Listen, acknowledge what you're hearing, ask open ended questions (not leading), and learn from and about their experience. You'll grow closer and both people can gain a lot from it.
Interesting. How is that?
If you are asking what rubber ducking is, it’s the practice of explaining your issues to a toy as if it were a coworker. Explaining your issues to a coworker forces you to organise your thoughts and problems so that wherever you tell makes sense, and a lot of times the act of organising pushes you to vetch the fault in your logic, or the issue that needs fixing, the missing part…
Except…
I feel bad for my rubber ducky. It still helps though! The number of support/bug report emails that never get sent because I figured it out from the same thought process is not 0. I read this once, but talking/thinking about the problem, just the problem, for 5+ minutes before trying to come up with solutions can be really helpful.
I see. Do you like rubber ducking?
Not really, I just info dump my partner on my coffee break and since she’s not a dev, the process of simplifying the issue so she somewhat understands and shortening it so she doesn’t get too bored is helpful enough.
And how does that make you feel?
I didn’t realize that I do this to machine operators at work when their machine is broken, thanks for this!
Explaining something as complicated as “Why Your Machine is Fucked and Now You Have to Sweep” to someone lacking the decade of training and experience I have is like a compulsion sometimes.
I don’t think it’s fair to expect your significant other to act as an inanimate object and receive your frustrations without reacting like they normally would. It’s great if you have that kind of relationship, but forcing it is not ok.
pathiefYou are not supposed to be an inanimate object. You’re supposed to listen, acknowledge, talk about the topic at hands. Empathize, ask questions to better understand the problem. Show interest in your significant other, show them you care about what is upsetting them.
Sometimes people get stuck on the “have you tried the most basic and simplest answer?” questions and it’s frustrating as hell. You can just ask “wanna brainstorm about it?”, at least you’re setting the mood in the right direction.
pomodoro_longbreakAlso known as being a good listener. Ideally it goes back and forth, too. But there’s a time and a place for everyone to take on the listener/encourager role.
Eeeeehhhhhhh I have a feeling Lemmy is going to skin me alive for this but I can’t help myself.
It’s not about the nail.
It's Not About The Nail
It’s funny, but she’s right, it’s not about the nail. Never was.
mykneedoesnthurtOP get a really loud hair dryer and do your hair while you smile and nod
Wow. Just wow. This is such an eye-opener. I mean, with all the comments here.
I had no idea this was a common thing! Up until now I thought only my girlfriend was like this.
Also, this makes me understand a Christmas present I received many years ago. I never understood the meaning of it and never knew from whom I received it and why (so I couldn’t ask about it), it was just under the Christmas tree next to a book I received. This “gift” was just a note on a piece of very thin wooden sheet, it said “Is it necessary to find a solution to every problem? Can’t we just enjoy the problem for a little bit?”
Now it kinda makes sense, although I still don’t know why I received it. Yes, I am a very solution-oriented person, but I’m also very introverted, back then I didn’t have a girlfriend, I had no friends, I didn’t even talk with my family much, and honestly, I couldn’t even really find solutions to problems in the first place. I have no clue what made someone give that to me.
ObiProbably your mom.
Same here. After marriage, I did learned to tone down on this.
CatpuccinoPeople notice you more than you think you do. You may think you didn’t talk to people much but that means it was non zero and people tend to listen.
People will want to dwell on the problem for a bit so they can fully feel their feelings. They feel cut off and stunted if they’re not allowed to.
ughAs a problem-solver, it isn’t only women.
idunnololzKind of a boomer take, isn’t it?
I’m a millennial and love my strong, capable wife. But we do this every day. It’s not limited by gender I assume.
Men; on average are more conscientious, while women; on average, are more open to new experiences. Best advice I’ve had (and possibly backed by research into the climbing divorce rates) is that we have fundamentally different needs. Rather than applying the Golden Rule we should strive to understand our partners unique needs.
While there are gender differences they’re only significant at a macro level. In a room full of individuals there’s no telling who will be most conscientious or empathetic. The meme checks out tho.
Gay dude here. No, not limited by gender. I have to put great effort into not providing solutions when they aren’t wanted. This most often manifests as me realizing I was doing it and verbally acknowledging I lost the plot and encouraging my spouse to continue.
Oh I didn’t mean this wasn’t a thing, I meant this comic kind of has a “wife bad” undertone.
The original comic was making fun of dogs because they wanted you to throw the Frisbee but they won’t give you the Frisbee, illustrating a cute but kind of stupid behavior of dogs.
By using the same format for his wife I was interpreting this as “haha wife dumb” when this is reasonable behavior for the wife.
Not really, sometimes people just need to vent and have support without trying to fix it for them.
Oh I didn’t mean this wasn’t a thing, I meant this comic kind of has a “wife bad” undertone.
The original comic was making fun of dogs because they wanted you to throw the Frisbee but they won’t give you the Frisbee, illustrating a cute but kind of stupid behavior of dogs.
By using the same format for his wife I was interpreting this as “haha wife dumb” when this is reasonable behavior for the wife.
Ah, yeah that’s valid then.
problematicPantherSometimes people just need someone to listen to them bitch and moan. Sometimes we don’t need a solution, sometimes there isn’t even a solution.
I don’t think I’m something-oriented person in general and often times I quickly learn if someone is asking for an advice or consolation. How should I reply to “I want a real solution for this” when the question is what one should do if it’s 1am and is in hankering for some late night delivery food? How can I give you any input on that?
Make them a pizza and bring it to bed.
My mother is a steel women, rationala and calm, no bitching, no crying, there is a problem? fix it. You need something? say it, don’t expect others to guess. Words are empty, you care? See what that person needs and help them. Not a fan of corny things, you want love? There is this delicious food, and a hug, now grow up and keep going.
Aaand everything she taught me, has put me at odds with every women I had dated.
They key is to do both. Listen intentently, respond with something like “wow that sucks, would you like a hug?” And then while hugging say something like “is there anything I can do to help you with this?”
That’s what will give you your answer. If she says “no” then just let it be. If she says “I don’t know” help to guide her to the solution. Ask “what do you think could be done to make it better?” And let the pieces fall in place.
Even if you know the answer, it’s better to let people come up with it on their own. They’ll feel understood and empowered, and you won’t get shit on for being calous. Everyone wins
love languages. Even an action can be relatively empty, in the short term. For some people, physical action takes less effort than emotional, empathetic work due to the potential emotional discomfort involved and/or the vulnerability required. Different people need different things, this is often due to our experiences as children.
ParsnipWitchI let you in on a secret: these type of people exist in every gender. So do people who are sensitive and emotional. Stereotypes and sexism about that is dumb. Believing anecdotal evidence speaks for a whole group of people is dumb as well.
What works if someone has a preference is to look early into how a person ticks. Instead of focusing on stereotypes and other superficial assumptions (for example).