Silent extinction rule

https://lemmy.world/post/8787491

Silent extinction rule - Lemmy.World

I agree and as someone who fails at art constantly, I see how not limiting your art to one style only and one medium only might be a possible solution. I have sold four oil paintings and made over $5,000 off my art, but I'm no artist, I just do things in different styles that suit my mood. Mostly very horrible compositions with no regard for the rules of painting.

Maybe the trick to taking on AI is not to limit yourself or just do the same thing over and over again. I mean the less imitatable or predictable you are, the more you will succeed in art even if you're not much of an artist.

It’s devastating to our morale, even knowing that my particular field of art still has time before it’s overtaken.

If a computer can create art better than you, maybe you’re a bad artist?

I don’t get this discussion at all. The internal combustion engine did away with horses. Do we mourn horses? Excavators replaced people with shovels, electric computers replaced their human predecessors, even alarm clocks replaced humans. Why do people who splatter paint on canvas think they deserve special treatment?

We don’t have to feed horses to cars so we can make cars. We need artists to create original works to feed AI.
Great. That means there is a natural demand for artists. If AI starts failing because it isn't fed enough art, the demand will rise.
Unfortunately, as evidenced by half of this comments section, a lot of people are starting think of artists as irrelevant. Unless this changes soon, art is going to really suck for a while. Especially for those of us making art but aren’t popular enough to weather the storm.

a lot of people are starting think of artists as irrelevant

I’ve thought that since childhood. I’m interested in the art. The pretty pictures, the nice music. Why should I care if a human or AI made it?

The only thing we need humans for (for now) is innovation. But then, listen to the billboard top 100 and tell me where you find innovation throughout these human artists. Take me to an art gallery and tell me how “I threw my brush at the canvas” has a right to exist next to “I threw my palette at the canvas” and “I throw a bucket of paint against the canvas”. Inform me how <DC movie number 28> differs meaningfully from number 27.

I think you might have a poor understanding of what art actually is or how it gets made. Sure there are some artists throwing random shit at a canvas, but there are significantly more that spend decades working their ass off perfecting their skills. The latter rarely get recognized for their work and aren’t making it on the top 100 lists, and AI is making it infinitely harder for them to be seen.

Also, AI would not exist without human artists creating the artworks that AI is trained on.

And we based digital brush patterns ans effects in computer art programs on real ones made by skilled artisans. Are you going to complain that digital artists are bad because they’re putting brush makers out of business?
digital art needs skill

If a computer can create better at than you, maybe it’s because the computer stole all your art and combined it with everyone else’s.

The replacement of art by AI has very little in common with the replacement of horses by cars. Art is an inherently subjective thing that does not fill a singular, tangible role in society. AI, by it’s very nature, can never properly replace human made art. Especially since AI art can only exist because of human creations.

Us artists don’t think we deserve special treatment, we just don’t want to see something we love get ruined because of a computer that stole all of our work.

the computer stole all your art and combined it with everyone else’s.

I’m literally begging people to actually learn how AI works before being loudly opinionated on it on the internet.

A big part of learning how AI works is recognizing some of the problems it creates. Also, I wasn’t trying to describe how AI works, just pointing out that a lot of AI is trained on misappropriated artwork.
AI works simply by sealing other peoples hard work and meshing it together using certain parameters. IT’s not complicated nor has it ever been complicated. all AI works simply by stealing from others
It’s not a matter of better, it’s a matter of quicker, easier and probably free. You have it backwards, if you get good AI art, then you have good/great artists that they’re pulling from. Think of all of those animations that already treat their animators poorly, they’re going to replace them in a heart beat. Same with video games. I don’t think these artists ever felt special, lol.

To be fair, every good artist is going to start out as a bad artist, but if people give up at that early stage, they’ll never get better. Personally though, I don’t think AI is going to replace artists, as a group. It will replace some artists, those who’s work is most readily replaceable and which don’t get some of their perceived value from the identity of the artist themselves, and this is going to cause real problems for these people that should not be ignored; but art as a whole will still exist, and even still exist as a profession. There are any number of niches where the identity of the artist themselves is part of the appeal of the art they make (for example, a painting of a soup can, by itself, is probably nothing particularly special or appealing as paintings go. A painting of a soup can by Andy Warhol is the sort of thing that might be displayed in art galleries and be considered very valuable. Or for a less “gallery art” example, if a small time artist who does, say, an independent animated cartoon series, or does character art commissions, or such, has acquired a fanbase around their work, they will probably still be able to get donations or commission requests from those people, because even if an AI could create something that looks similar, it would not have the appeal of being from that person for those fans.) That isn’t even getting into physical art mediums, I don’t expect that stable diffusion or whatever is going to replacing an artist who makes metal sculptures, for instance.

On some level, it might ultimately help some artists be more productive too. AIs that can create pictures from a prompt are cool and all, but just text isn’t always enough to clearly communicate an image one has in one’s head. I see no reason they also couldn’t be subtly incorporated into digital art tools to make it easier for an artist to create exactly what they are imagining, say, you could have an AI that figures out where the borders between objects are in a drawing and so lets one fill in lineart quickly even of it has gaps, or generate reference images from a specific angle at a chosen part of a drawing to help plan out how everything works in a scene, or fill in what is behind something when part of a drawing is erased (I’ve already seen tools that do that one).

Ultimately, I suspect that this will be somewhat analogous to how there are still tailors and blacksmiths in the world, even though we automated the production of clothing and metal tools long ago. There aren’t as many of them, sure, but their crafts still exist, there are still people that make a living doing those things, and those that exist today have tools their predecessors wouldn’t have dreamed of, like sewing machines and power hammers.

ai art isn't better

In many cases it actually is.

Plenty of artists think their art is hot shit when it is in fact just shit.

Whenever machines have become better than humans at anything, we’ve still placed more value on the handmade items. Same applies here. Keep creating! People love your oroginal stuff.
I hope originals will have a way to copyright it and if an AI uses it for anything, pays the artist. We have to keep up with this, or it’s going to be a very dark world where imagination goes quiet.

You are allowed to use copyrighted content for training. I recommend reading this article by Kit Walsh, a senior staff attorney at the EFF if you haven’t already. The EFF is a digital rights group who most recently won a historic case: border guards now need a warrant to search your phone.

Also remember that AI training isn’t only for mega-corporations. We can already train open source models, we shouldn’t put up barriers that only benefit the ultra-wealthy. If we weaken fair use, we hand corporations a monopoly of a public technology by making it prohibitively expensive to for regular people to keep up. Mega corporations already own datasets, and have the money to buy more. And that’s before they make users sign predatory ToS allowing them exclusive access to user data, effectively selling our own data back to us. Regular people, who could have had access to a competitive, corporate-independent tool for creativity, education, entertainment, and social mobility, would instead be left worse off and with fewer rights than where they started.

How We Think About Copyright and AI Art

Artists are understandably concerned about the possibility that automatic image generators like Stable Diffusion will undercut the market for their work. We live in a society that does not support people who are automated out of a job, and being a visual artist is an already precarious career.In...

Electronic Frontier Foundation

I disagree with that article 100%. They’re missing the spirit of copyright law which is to protect artists that create original work. They already try to protect musicians and do this in music with sampling. But instead of one artist stealing parts of your song or the spirit of the song, they’re coming after visual art from every angle because it’s a computer and like 10,000 people doing that. We should be able to copyright our work and have to agree for it to be used, the end. It’s ridiculous and greedy of these huge companies to do anything else.

Also, how fucked up is it that they liken it to the little guy competing with big companies, that’s not a thing. If they used public domain art, I don’t think any of this would be an issue. Do we own our own voice, imagination, likeness? I say yeah, we do. The corporations shouldn’t have the rights to those.

I disagree with that article 100%. They’re missing the spirit of copyright law which is to protect artists that create original work. They already try to protect musicians and do this in music with sampling. But instead of one artist stealing parts of your song or the spirit of the song, they’re coming after visual art from every angle because it’s a computer and like 10,000 people doing that. We should be able to copyright our work and have to agree for it to be used, the end. It’s ridiculous and greedy of these huge companies to do anything else.

To quote the article:

First, copyright law doesn’t prevent you from making factual observations about a work or copying the facts embodied in a work (this is called the “idea/expression distinction”). Rather, copyright forbids you from copying the work’s creative expression in a way that could substitute for the original, and from making “derivative works” when those works copy too much creative expression from the original.

Fair use protects reverse engineering, indexing for search engines, and other forms of analysis that create new knowledge about works or bodies of works. Here, the fact that the model is used to create new works weighs in favor of fair use as does the fact that the model consists of original analysis of the training images in comparison with one another.

Just to be clear, I don’t give a shit about corporations, but what you want will hurt all artists and give corporations the unprecedented legal tools to take down anything they don’t feel like having around.

What part are you referencing here:

Also, how fucked up is it that they liken it to the little guy competing with big companies, that’s not a thing. If they used public domain art, I don’t think any of this would be an issue. Do we own our own voice, imagination, likeness? I say yeah, we do. The corporations shouldn’t have the rights to those.

I’m not really sure what this is about.

How We Think About Copyright and AI Art

Artists are understandably concerned about the possibility that automatic image generators like Stable Diffusion will undercut the market for their work. We live in a society that does not support people who are automated out of a job, and being a visual artist is an already precarious career.In...

Electronic Frontier Foundation

The article is only going by technicalities in the law, we need to close that loophole and go with the spirit of the law. We need to protect the human artist’s imagination and creations.

I’m not really sure what this is about.

Is this:

but what you want will hurt all artists and give corporations the unprecedented legal tools to take down anything they don’t feel like having around.

We can’t play by the existing rules, why would we want to? We need to make new rules. The actors union knew where this was going and created new rules for their actors and the visual arts need to do the same.

I don’t think there is some loophole that is against the spirit of the law, it works like this on purpose. In the US, fair use balances the interests of copyright holders with the public’s right to access and use information. There are rights people can maintain over their work, and the rights they do not maintain have always been to the benefit of self-expression and discussion. We shouldn’t be trying to make that any worse.
I think you’re going to regret your side of the conversation because this is not going to end well for artists if people like you get your way. You just want free art, free music and free entertainment unless you make it, that’s usually how it goes. And when I say “make it”, I mean steal from other artists with the right tag words.

I guess I want free art. There is nothing wrong with wanting a tool to help people better communicate, inspire, create, and connect with each other in ways they may not have been able to before.

We’re all standing on the shoulders of giants. We learn from each other, and humanity is at its best when we can all share in our advancements. Calling this stealing is self-serving, manipulative rhetoric that unjustly vilifies people and misrepresents the reality of how these models work.

It took us 100,000 years to get from cave drawings to Leonard Da Vinci. This is just another step, like artists who used Camera Obscura in the past. It’s important to remember that early man was as smart as we are, they just lacked the interconnectivity that we have.

John Atkinson Grimshaw - Wikipedia

Calling this stealing is self-serving, manipulative rhetoric that unjustly vilifies people and misrepresents the reality of how these models work.

So whatever you do for a living, give it to me free. We all stand on the shoulders of giants after all. Management? You have to manage for free, we learned that shit from our ancestors. Research, come on, I want it alllllll. Medical, heal me for free with the equipment that was based on older versions. Music? There aren’t that many chords to begin with, you didn’t create a note. Electrician? Work for free, you didn’t invent electricity or how to connect to the grid. Etc., etc., etc., etc.,. etc., etc., etc.,…

You’re beginning to understand.
Then you’re in the wrong country.
No, you just haven’t made it the right one yet.
You? Name one country that went communist that was taken over by a despot or made into a hellscape.
Communism is for the illiterate. Real men prefer democratic socialism.
I am really struggling to see how you managed to reach that conclusion. I’ve reread this chain of comments and the article three times now, and by all means, it just seems like they’re talking about the danger of weakening fair use laws due to potential corporate abuse.
Believing copyright law is there to protect artists is like believing that property rights are there to protect the average citizens ability to earn and prosper

It’s probably easier and more correct to make the argument that AI is capable of generating both original and derivative works, just like a human is.

A sufficiently large number of humans would be capable of performing the exact same calculations as a generative AI, a pokes a hole in the idea that it is incapable of generating original works. That being said, there does seem to be a subjective cutoff after which the generated work is no longer transformative. If I create some arbitrarily complex model that happens to recreate the latest Banksy given a specific prompt, to the point where replacing the model with Google Images would yield the same result, it’s difficult to see how the work shouldn’t be copyrighted.

I’m fine with this conclusion because it’s pretty much where we are now. As an artist, I could study a piece of art and (a) create something original based on what I see, or (b) imitate it as closely as possible, and if you think the result is too close to (b), you take it to court.

The article didn’t say, but doea that ruling cover the many mile wide “border” zone?
Margins go up, but demand goes down.
I prefer my electronics made by machines, the human factory workers just don’t know how to align carbon nanotubes the same way.

“Now” is the time? For fuck’s sake it has always been the time. Smaller artists have always lived and died by the donation.

If you’re approaching this from thinking AI is the problem: it has the potential to put the menial grunt labor of production art out of work. A lot of low level employees grinding backgrounds to earn resume points will have a hard time.

But moreso: it can put a wage earning artist in a position of art director for their own productions. Albeit currently said artist would need a specialized skillset of working with AI image generation. And not everyone wants to be a mini art editor or art director. It does have real threatening consequences for an industry.

Nonetheless the definition of what it means to be an artist is a fluid and dynamic concept. Maybe portfolios for art school won’t be a selection of painted works on canvas and instead an individually developed and trained checkpoint model for AI generation.

On the flip side, open source AI (and other tools) make it possible for single indie artists to do more, faster, and (at least in the world of animation), compete with the bigger studios out there.

Photography already killed art. It’s nowhere near as popular as it was before photography. It’s now becoming a time when commissioned works can be popularized as well. So art made by humans becomes even more niche.

Hey, I’m sorry for the roof thatchers and knife sharpeners out there, and what happened to their profession. The Appalachians and West Virginia is dirt poor because coal mining isn’t what it used to be.

Why do “artists” think they’re holy and should be protected?

Why do “artists” think they’re holy and should be protected?

Has anyone ever implied that it’s just artists? Automation putting people out of work has always been a major fear, and has been realized over and over again. It’s not “just artists,” it just so happens that art is the current domino to fall.

Oh my goodness, do I need to spell this out?

IT’S THE POST. The very post we’re commenting on is an example of how art is trying to be shielded from the advances of technology whereas coal miners knife sharpeners roof thatchers… everybody watched them starve and nobody cared.

They were clapping while the miners were sent into starvation. People were dying and we were clapping because an industry we didn’t like went away. It’s all because “Art Lovers” are rich and elitist that they want an outcry. Which of us has a collection of art, or even one piece? Nobody who thinks about paying bills I’ll bet.

Oh my goodness, do I need to spell this out?

Yes.

Context and subtext aren’t things people actually think about anymore these days. Also be sure to choose your words extremely carefully, because they all only have 1 definition now and it’s whatever the other person reading thinks it is and not what it says in a dictionary or what has been established by the majority of people for hundreds of years.

Also don’t be subtle, don’t use euphemisms, don’t be sarcastic, and never exaggerate or else you’ll be accused of “spreading misinformation.” Despite the fact that 90% of the interaction on the internet is still text, too many people joining in forums like this have absolutely zero reading comprehension skills.

They take a single line from your post and write up a huge post of their own just to argue with th- Wait… Fuck! Now I’m doing it!

Maybe it’s time we automate all the work away and realize that our individual existence doesn’t need to depend on our contributions to society (*based on availability, time of year, race, luck-of-birthplace, shareholder whims)

If art is dead, it’s because it wasn’t readily manufacturable enough for capital. Most things aren’t. Why do we continue to let them rule everything? It’s clearly not working.

…and as long as we’re dreaming, I’d like a pony.

If it was possible to automate all jobs, capitalism would’ve done it by now. Robots are always cheaper than human workers.

If it was possible to automate all jobs, capitalism would’ve done it by now.

Capitalism is the halfway point between Feudalism and Socialism, we’ve got another 4000 years on that social scale. Maybe don’t consider capitalism superman when it’s actively killing people.

Nowhere did I say automation of all jobs was a good thing.
Haven’t yet. Time doesn’t end now. we didn’t have the car for 2.4 billion years before it was invented either.

our individual existence doesn’t need to depend on our contributions to society (*based on availability, time of year, race, luck-of-birthplace, shareholder whims)

Good job, Einstein! What are you going to do with that earth-shattering realization?

“Why don’t we just automate all jobs” like it’s that easy?

I’m not, I’m saying jobs will be automated as we can automated them, we have pocket calculators instead of people calculators, how are you so bad at extrapolating that concept? If you want the world to be fixed and perfect build a time machine. If you want the world to be better, wait a decade. If you want your life to be better, wait a day.

You’re making a mistake there. Robots aren’t always cheaper. It’s not like someone invents a new robot and suddenly it’s everywhere because “robots are always cheaper”. Robots are cheaper where they are being used, because they wouldn’t be used otherwise.New robots aren’t as much invented as made feasible by advances in manufacturing methods.
Art wasn’t melting the ice caps. That’s why we were cheering the coal mining industry getting some. Because the coal industry is choking the goddamn planet to death. What did you want from us? Are we supposed to feel bad because the people raping mother earth for profit are going to get a job doing something that won’t kill us?
Normative reply to descriptive comment.