Mastodawn

Alvaro Nov 23, 2023

The Netherlands has a multi-party system just like reformers in the US want, reputable elections, biking infrastructure that people won't shut up about, a long tradition of social democracy, and just had a far-right election victory. The rise of fascism is not some trickery by Trump or the Russians or the US system: it's part of the world-wide failure of neoliberalism, which suppressed the left and then died.

An add-on post to the prior one about the Netherlands, to clear up some common misunderstandings about my opinion:

1. I'm an anarchist. I'm not mourning the death of social democracy or any other state form.

2. People are pointing out that the Netherlands election does not give the right wing absolute power: they have to form a majority. OK. Trump did not get absolute power when he won the US Presidency either. In the US there is a complex system of checks and balances that is supposed to substitute for the party-majority system. Of course neither system works once the right gains enough popularity.

3. Neoliberalism is a form of liberalism. It's OK to refer to "right wing neoliberalism" if you consider the US center-left to be right wing. But neoliberalism's position in history is well understood and it is a natural outgrowth of liberalism as such.

4. Because of capitalist class interest, neoliberalism was a world order that had essentially no popular support. No one went around holding signs that said "Support the WTO and we all get wealthier". Where it had to, neoliberalism pretended to social progressivism, but it absolutely consolidated the destruction of anything to the left of itself. Even supposedly Communist China is effectively neoliberal, at least in how it relates to the rest of the world.

Terfs Have No Friends Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky I'm being unfair here, but a Onion style headline came to mind: People From The Continent That Invented Fascism Surprised Fascist Won

Irina Nov 23, 2023

@magnetmagician @RichPuchalsky Oh, we're not *surprised* that the fascist won. We're just angry that the fascist won.

william.maggos Nov 23, 2023

might also want to look at the issues they ran on etc.

glipari Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky i kinda agree, except that neoliberals did not kill the left; it's the social democrats that embraced neoliberism and killed the left before dying.

witchescauldron Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky neoliberlism has always been a #deathcult we did this before with "classical liberalism" and millions died last time. Fallowed by the 20th century of social democracy.. then back to the same mess for the last 40 years

Space Hobo Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky
But that very system will now prevent those fascists from even forming a coalition, unlike the plurality-take-all systems like the US or UK.
I understand your later point, but systems that prevent sudden seizure of power are an important step forward.
@Hex

hex Nov 23, 2023

@spacehobo @RichPuchalsky its 100x better than the US. Here there's some hope and we might have more time.

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 23, 2023

@spacehobo I don't know the Dutch right-wing parties, but in Sweden the traditional right bloc hemmed and hawed for one election cycle while traditional left and right blocs jockeyed for minority power and in the next the traditional right bloc welcomed the fascists for a solid parliamental majority.

@Hex @RichPuchalsky

Matthias Warkus Nov 23, 2023

@spacehobo @RichPuchalsky @Hex »the plurality-take-all systems like Weimar«

What on earth are you talking about? The Weimar Republic Reichstag was elected by pure proportional representation

Space Hobo Nov 23, 2023

@mawa @RichPuchalsky @Hex Ah, fair point.

FlyingMana Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky or they found out that Trumps trickery works universal everywhere to manipulate the public opinion, regardless of how well off the people are

Priscilla Haring-Kuipers Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky within our pluralistic system the green/labour combo also got a lot of votes, a lot more than last election. I am very unhappy with the amount of votes for right-wing PVV but it is not the only thing happening. Coalition still needs to be formed, because it is pluralistic the government is not simply formed by whoever has most votes (now PVV) because that is not a majority.

🍵 holly Nov 23, 2023

@priscillaharing @RichPuchalsky I'm hanging my hopes on a GL/PvdA-led coalition, but the fact that so many would vote for Wilders is a gut punch. I hosted a Thanksgiving dinner last night, all of us in attendance were immigrants. 9pm felt eerily like Nov 2016.

Priscilla Haring-Kuipers Nov 23, 2023

@holly @RichPuchalsky so sorry 😔

Irina Nov 23, 2023

@holly @priscillaharing @RichPuchalsky Strangely, we're on holiday now, and we were also on holiday when Trump was elected. This time we could actually vote in the hotel where we're staying!

🍵 holly Nov 23, 2023

@priscillaharing @RichPuchalsky The US sorely needs a multi-party system, imo. With a 2-party system, neither party can be held accountable because people are voting more against the other "team" than for their own. People here in NL feel ok to shift parties when their party displays incompetence or betrays their principles, and in a democratie that needs to an option or people don't feel heard.

Priscilla Haring-Kuipers Nov 23, 2023

@holly @RichPuchalsky most of the PVV votes came from VVD (also right but milder) in which I guess people are finally now disappointed ☹️ other more right like FvD has been dying and BBB did less great too.. The ruin of populism is to let them rule and reality will make clear that there is no solution here (hey Brexit) but while ruining itself it will also bring out the worst in society and ruin the country. I really really hope we can quickly form a left-oriented government

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky worth noting that, in this context, "won" the election means they're the largest party with 35 seats. Far short of a majority unless other parties choose to work with the fascists.

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 23, 2023

@georgepotter I'm disillusioned. The Right will collaborate. Even the so-called Liberal Right.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky I think they probably will, but that shouldn't be mistaken for being the same thing as the fascists "winning" an election when they still only represent a minority.

In the US a fascist won the 2016 presidential election. A fascist party winning a third of the seats in a parliamentary election is not the same thing, especially when we're talking about the benefits of proportional versus first past the post systems.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky in multi party systems fascists don't take power unless non-fascist parties work with them. In two party systems fascists can take power simply by being the largest faction within one of the two parties.

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 23, 2023

@georgepotter I'm a huge fan of proportional representation and I think first past the post sucks.

But the experience from the last ten years says that just like the center faction in the Republican Party caved to the fascist faction, so the center-right bloc in the multi-party Dutch system will cave to the largest party that is "at least not the Left", just like they did in Sweden. If not this time then next time, after a few years of parliamental uncertainty.

There will be a lot of symbolic resistance which in the end will amount to nothing, just like within the GOP in 2016.

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 23, 2023

Hitler's NSDAP had a third of the seats.

@georgepotter @RichPuchalsky

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky yes, but that is my point. In multi-party systems the fascists only come to power if non-fascist parties enable them. That does often happen, but it's certainly not inevitable and the system as a whole is less vulnerable to fascists than one where fascists can easily hijack a single party.

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 23, 2023

@georgepotter It did go faster to hijack the system in the US, I agree. But I think that the fascists becoming the biggest party is a Big Frikkin Deal to report on and the distinction whether "winning the election" means "literally won majority" or "the election was a huge win for them" is nitpicking.

They went from third party and declining to biggest party. That's a win, regardless if they can form a cabinet of their own. They're the kingmaker.

A majority of seats would have been a bigger disaster. But this is a big disaster and a huge disappointment.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky I don't think it's nitpicking, I think it's really important that we don't misrepresent election outcomes. Countries with first past the post assume that every election must have a "winner".

But the reality is not that the Dutch fascists have massively surged in popularity (though their popularity has increased) but that the non-fascist vote is more fragmented than ever before due to the emergence of new parties.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky if your definition of "won" an election is simply being the largest party then that can lead to saying that a party entering and exiting an election with the same 20 seats has "won" simply because their opponents went from being 3 parties with 30 seats each to being 6 parties with 15 seats each.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky one of the biggest ways fascists are normalised is by having their successes over exaggerated and hyped up by the media. Looking successful helps them to succeed further. Saying they "won" when only a minority of people voted for them only helps them. Putting their success in its proper context hurts them.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky the incumbent coalition government was hugely unpopular and had fallen apart over the very issue central to the fascist platform, there were two successful new parties competing to split the votes of their rivals, the fascists massively toned down their rhetoric and policies and yet, in this almost perfect storm, they still only managed 35 seats.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky regardless of whether other parties enable them into power or not doesn't change the fact that even on their best night the fascists could only attract the support of a quarter of the country.

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 23, 2023

@georgepotter I wish I could share your optimism and I hope you are right.

George Potter Nov 30, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky relevant update on this, it looks like hopefully the line might be holding:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67574033

Key Dutch party sees 'no basis' for talks with Wilders

Anti-Islam populist leader Geert Wilders needs the backing of other parties to become prime minister.

BBC News

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 30, 2023

@georgepotter That's good to hear. Looking forward to being wrong, at least this time around.

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 23, 2023

> the incumbent coalition government was hugely unpopular and had fallen apart over the very issue central to the fascist platform

‌@georgepotter To me this says the fascists doubled their own seats plus won half of the incumbents' seats as supporters.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky not correct given the incumbents lost a lot of seats and votes to the two new parties contesting the election.

sj_zero Nov 24, 2023

We're seeing more and more right wing and "far right" victories around the world, but it's something a lot of people have been warning loudly about for years.

It isn't because of neoliberalism (I'll make another post sometime explaining why neoliberalism is largely a red herring), it's because the left gave up on liberalism and tolerance and became authoritarian and hateful.

Not every individual, of course there's lots of people who are still following the ideology that made them a cultural juggernaut for a long time, and there's a lot to appeal to in that. Regardless, the establishment left is terrible. Trudeau seizing the bank accounts of peaceful protesters can't be undone. Biden up against a blood red background flanked by soldiers to go on a screed against his hated political enemies can't be undone. Count Dankula getting arrested for teaching a little purse dog to do a stupid nazi salute can't be undone. Jordan Peterson having to fight in court because they're trying to take his psychiatry license away because of purely political statements made on twitter can't be undone.

This isn't the first time I've said this, but if you go back to the Weimar republic and saw what conditions led to the National Socialists getting power, you'd be hard pressed to purposefully match the conditions better: You have a people who are sick of being told they're evil for stuff they didn't have any say in. You have high inflation. You have massive pain felt by the common person for reparations being paid out of their pockets. According to one book, the Weimar republic also had examples of moral degeneracy such as child brothels that would shock the conscience of most people but was considered cutting edge at the time. That sort of thing gave the National Socialists something to leverage.

People try to argue with me on this stuff, but the proof in the pudding is in the eating. The far right is crushing the center right in many elections around the world, and the right is starting to win big against the left in many elections around the world. AfD was once unspeakable in Germany. The far right party has won in the netherlands. A deep libertarian has won in Argentina. Poilievre is looking to dominate the next election in Canada. It's even looking like Donald Trump could be the next president of the United States despite 7 solid years of defamation in the media and hundreds of criminal charges (an unprecedented act in US politics that can't be undone, might I add). Even if someone wins a debate with me, it doesn't change the facts about what's happening around the world.

Even some longtime right wingers are concerned about what the far right backlash is going to look like because it has the capacity to be really, really bad. I have to admit, I'm pretty scared of it myself because I'm not actually far right and their ideal world is one I don't want to live in.

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 23, 2023

@georgepotter They more than doubled their vote and they almost doubled their seats. And a quarter of the voters is a terrifying amount of support for what should be a fringe party.

In terms of media strategy I agree that their victories should not be exaggerated as there's a risk that it becomes self-fulfilling and normalized. On the other hand their opposition needs a wake-up call, clearly.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@clacke @RichPuchalsky it is indeed scary, but just under 24% of the vote doesn't seem inconsistent with many countries, unfortunately. It should absolutely be a wake up call, and not just in the Netherlands.

However, the OP's point of "multi party systems let the fascists win too" is a great example of misrepresenting how popular fascists actually are and thereby giving them the legitimacy of success, which is often what encourages other parties to start working with them.

Rajnhildo Ursidino

evdonia_corner_emblem

@georgepotter @RichPuchalsky Historically, that happens.

George Potter Nov 23, 2023

@reinhilde @RichPuchalsky it does indeed, but it's not the same thing as allowing a third of the population to win 100% of the power simply by hijacking one of the two big parties.

Selena Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky
PVV is economically left-wing (higher minimum-wage, better services for handicapped people) and socially right-wing (anti-immigration, anti-woke).
Having so many parties means that opinions that get folded together in 2-party systems do not always go together in the Netherlands.

The largest international fearmonger about the PVV is D66 which is economically right-wing (protecting landlords) and socially left-wing (lots of rainbow flags, pro-euthanasia, pro-drugs)

undead enby of the apocalypse Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky I’d say that these things don’t happen in a vacuum, and the rise of fascism elsewhere makes it easier to spread/import fascist propaganda in many places

3mind Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky I would not only concentrate on the competition and effects between political systems (neolib vs. right or left) within a country of an election itself, but also take into account the role of (international) media and worldwide malicious adversarial influence on social media. Due to massive campaigns on social and classic media, every open democracy currently is extremely vulnerable to hybrid warfare on social media - especially during election campaigns.

Thorsten Sterk Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky it‘s a worldwide failure of electoral democracy, that leads to partisanship, polarization, populism and extremism.

Another democratic future is possible.

http://www.demnext.org

Homepage

DemocracyNext is an international non-profit, non-partisan research and action institute.

DemocracyNext

Rajnhildo Ursidino

evdonia_corner_emblem

@RichPuchalsky it's true

Metafrastis Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky The fascists don’t have any kind of majority, they got the votes of the 30% idiots that every rightwing party in Europe gets in every country. There is still a large majority of voters who don‘t support Geert Wilders.

Jörg Seidel Nov 23, 2023

@RichPuchalsky
It's also the fallout of the financial crisis during which we took trillions of common people's money to bailout the super-rich bank owners.
@AnthroBlogger

@lostgen @AnthroBlogger

That's part of neoliberalism, so it's the same thing.

geographile Nov 24, 2023

@RichPuchalsky I think there might also be bigots having a reactionary response to immigrants coming in from places that aren't Europe.

stoicmike Dec 11, 2023

@RichPuchalsky Here in the U.S. we only have the Democrats, and they are weak and corrupt. So we hold our noses and vote for them, as we will vote for Biden. And if he loses it will be more another failure of this fossilized party than a victory of the GOP.

"Consider for a second the moral assumptions inherent to a political philosophy that insists on voting for genocidaires rather than making genocidaires accountable to their victims. "

https://stevesalaita.com/genocide-joe-and-the-electoralists/

(Edited to add: this is written about Joe Biden, but it is really true of every US President)

Genocide Joe and the Electoralists - Steve Salaita

The fundamental inhumanity of electoralism has reached its final stage.

Steve Salaita

stoicmike Dec 12, 2023

@RichPuchalsky Two very degenerate democracies...