Rich Puchalsky 
The Netherlands has a multi-party system just like reformers in the US want, reputable elections, biking infrastructure that people won't shut up about, a long tradition of social democracy, and just had a far-right election victory. The rise of fascism is not some trickery by Trump or the Russians or the US system: it's part of the world-wide failure of neoliberalism, which suppressed the left and then died.
George Potter@RichPuchalsky worth noting that, in this context, "won" the election means they're the largest party with 35 seats. Far short of a majority unless other parties choose to work with the fascists.
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛@georgepotter I'm disillusioned. The Right will collaborate. Even the so-called Liberal Right.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky I think they probably will, but that shouldn't be mistaken for being the same thing as the fascists "winning" an election when they still only represent a minority.
In the US a fascist won the 2016 presidential election. A fascist party winning a third of the seats in a parliamentary election is not the same thing, especially when we're talking about the benefits of proportional versus first past the post systems.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky in multi party systems fascists don't take power unless non-fascist parties work with them. In two party systems fascists can take power simply by being the largest faction within one of the two parties.
@georgepotter I'm a huge fan of proportional representation and I think first past the post sucks.
But the experience from the last ten years says that just like the center faction in the Republican Party caved to the fascist faction, so the center-right bloc in the multi-party Dutch system will cave to the largest party that is "at least not the Left", just like they did in Sweden. If not this time then next time, after a few years of parliamental uncertainty.
There will be a lot of symbolic resistance which in the end will amount to nothing, just like within the GOP in 2016.
Hitler's NSDAP had a third of the seats.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky yes, but that is my point. In multi-party systems the fascists only come to power if non-fascist parties enable them. That does often happen, but it's certainly not inevitable and the system as a whole is less vulnerable to fascists than one where fascists can easily hijack a single party.
@georgepotter It did go faster to hijack the system in the US, I agree. But I think that the fascists becoming the biggest party is a Big Frikkin Deal to report on and the distinction whether "winning the election" means "literally won majority" or "the election was a huge win for them" is nitpicking.
They went from third party and declining to biggest party. That's a win, regardless if they can form a cabinet of their own. They're the kingmaker.
A majority of seats would have been a bigger disaster. But this is a big disaster and a huge disappointment.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky I don't think it's nitpicking, I think it's really important that we don't misrepresent election outcomes. Countries with first past the post assume that every election must have a "winner".
But the reality is not that the Dutch fascists have massively surged in popularity (though their popularity has increased) but that the non-fascist vote is more fragmented than ever before due to the emergence of new parties.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky if your definition of "won" an election is simply being the largest party then that can lead to saying that a party entering and exiting an election with the same 20 seats has "won" simply because their opponents went from being 3 parties with 30 seats each to being 6 parties with 15 seats each.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky one of the biggest ways fascists are normalised is by having their successes over exaggerated and hyped up by the media. Looking successful helps them to succeed further. Saying they "won" when only a minority of people voted for them only helps them. Putting their success in its proper context hurts them.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky the incumbent coalition government was hugely unpopular and had fallen apart over the very issue central to the fascist platform, there were two successful new parties competing to split the votes of their rivals, the fascists massively toned down their rhetoric and policies and yet, in this almost perfect storm, they still only managed 35 seats.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky regardless of whether other parties enable them into power or not doesn't change the fact that even on their best night the fascists could only attract the support of a quarter of the country.
@georgepotter I wish I could share your optimism and I hope you are right.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky relevant update on this, it looks like hopefully the line might be holding:
@georgepotter That's good to hear. Looking forward to being wrong, at least this time around.
> the incumbent coalition government was hugely unpopular and had fallen apart over the very issue central to the fascist platform
@georgepotter To me this says the fascists doubled their own seats plus won half of the incumbents' seats as supporters.
@clacke @RichPuchalsky not correct given the incumbents lost a lot of seats and votes to the two new parties contesting the election.
sj_zeroWe're seeing more and more right wing and "far right" victories around the world, but it's something a lot of people have been warning loudly about for years.
It isn't because of neoliberalism (I'll make another post sometime explaining why neoliberalism is largely a red herring), it's because the left gave up on liberalism and tolerance and became authoritarian and hateful.
Not every individual, of course there's lots of people who are still following the ideology that made them a cultural juggernaut for a long time, and there's a lot to appeal to in that. Regardless, the establishment left is terrible. Trudeau seizing the bank accounts of peaceful protesters can't be undone. Biden up against a blood red background flanked by soldiers to go on a screed against his hated political enemies can't be undone. Count Dankula getting arrested for teaching a little purse dog to do a stupid nazi salute can't be undone. Jordan Peterson having to fight in court because they're trying to take his psychiatry license away because of purely political statements made on twitter can't be undone.
This isn't the first time I've said this, but if you go back to the Weimar republic and saw what conditions led to the National Socialists getting power, you'd be hard pressed to purposefully match the conditions better: You have a people who are sick of being told they're evil for stuff they didn't have any say in. You have high inflation. You have massive pain felt by the common person for reparations being paid out of their pockets. According to one book, the Weimar republic also had examples of moral degeneracy such as child brothels that would shock the conscience of most people but was considered cutting edge at the time. That sort of thing gave the National Socialists something to leverage.
People try to argue with me on this stuff, but the proof in the pudding is in the eating. The far right is crushing the center right in many elections around the world, and the right is starting to win big against the left in many elections around the world. AfD was once unspeakable in Germany. The far right party has won in the netherlands. A deep libertarian has won in Argentina. Poilievre is looking to dominate the next election in Canada. It's even looking like Donald Trump could be the next president of the United States despite 7 solid years of defamation in the media and hundreds of criminal charges (an unprecedented act in US politics that can't be undone, might I add). Even if someone wins a debate with me, it doesn't change the facts about what's happening around the world.
Even some longtime right wingers are concerned about what the far right backlash is going to look like because it has the capacity to be really, really bad. I have to admit, I'm pretty scared of it myself because I'm not actually far right and their ideal world is one I don't want to live in.
It isn't because of neoliberalism (I'll make another post sometime explaining why neoliberalism is largely a red herring), it's because the left gave up on liberalism and tolerance and became authoritarian and hateful.
Not every individual, of course there's lots of people who are still following the ideology that made them a cultural juggernaut for a long time, and there's a lot to appeal to in that. Regardless, the establishment left is terrible. Trudeau seizing the bank accounts of peaceful protesters can't be undone. Biden up against a blood red background flanked by soldiers to go on a screed against his hated political enemies can't be undone. Count Dankula getting arrested for teaching a little purse dog to do a stupid nazi salute can't be undone. Jordan Peterson having to fight in court because they're trying to take his psychiatry license away because of purely political statements made on twitter can't be undone.
This isn't the first time I've said this, but if you go back to the Weimar republic and saw what conditions led to the National Socialists getting power, you'd be hard pressed to purposefully match the conditions better: You have a people who are sick of being told they're evil for stuff they didn't have any say in. You have high inflation. You have massive pain felt by the common person for reparations being paid out of their pockets. According to one book, the Weimar republic also had examples of moral degeneracy such as child brothels that would shock the conscience of most people but was considered cutting edge at the time. That sort of thing gave the National Socialists something to leverage.
People try to argue with me on this stuff, but the proof in the pudding is in the eating. The far right is crushing the center right in many elections around the world, and the right is starting to win big against the left in many elections around the world. AfD was once unspeakable in Germany. The far right party has won in the netherlands. A deep libertarian has won in Argentina. Poilievre is looking to dominate the next election in Canada. It's even looking like Donald Trump could be the next president of the United States despite 7 solid years of defamation in the media and hundreds of criminal charges (an unprecedented act in US politics that can't be undone, might I add). Even if someone wins a debate with me, it doesn't change the facts about what's happening around the world.
Even some longtime right wingers are concerned about what the far right backlash is going to look like because it has the capacity to be really, really bad. I have to admit, I'm pretty scared of it myself because I'm not actually far right and their ideal world is one I don't want to live in.