How do you feel about TypeScript?
Specifically, do you worry that Microsoft is going to eventually do the Microsoft thing and horribly fuck it up for everyone? I’ve really grown to appreciate the language itself, but I’m wary of it getting too ingrained at work only to have the rug pulled out from under us when it’s become hard to back out.
FYI, there’s a TypeScript community in Lemmy.
I’m sure that any non-trolling/flamebait discussion over TypeScript is welcomed in there.
Specifically, do you worry that Microsoft is going to eventually do the Microsoft thing and horribly fuck it up for everyone?
I’m not sure you are aware, but Microsoft created TypeScript.
…microsoft.com/…/announcing-typescript-1-0/
Without Microsoft, TypeScript would not exist.
TypeScript 1.0 Today, we’re happy to announce TypeScript 1.0. First, we want to give a big “thank you!” to everyone who has helped us over the last year and a half to meet this goal. Together, we’ve grown a language, tools, and a community around creating large-scale JavaScript applications.
I think you’re missing the point. It’s exactly cause Microsoft created it that people get worried about it.
I don’t think there is any merit to that concern. Not only is TypeScript FLOSS, Microsoft also has an excellent track record developing high-quality programming languages and tech stacks. Take for example C#. It’s been around for over two decades and if anything it’s getting better by the release.
I understand the rationale behind the concern, but there is also a factor of mindlessly parroting cliches.
Without Microsoft, TypeScript would not exist.
I'm not sure you are aware, but TypeScript is not the first language to compile to JavaScript.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4414558/languages-that-interpret-down-to-javascript
https://github.com/jashkenas/coffeescript/wiki/List-of-languages-that-compile-to-JS
Without TypeScript, people would have adopted a different JS transpiler, one that isn't controlled by a monopolistic corporation with a history of extinguishing open source projects.
I’m not sure you are aware, but TypeScript is not the first language (…)
This discussion is about TypeScript.
Yes, MS’s standard operation is to evolve the thing until it’s completely hostile to your intentions, but not explicitly enough to justify a tool change for management.
They are currently in the “devs wanted” mode, it will be a few years before they change into “fuck you, pay me” mode again.
Well since this is a Typescript / Microsoft kinda thread - there are replacements… You can use C# with Blazor (from Microsoft)
And you can also compile Go and Rust to WASM (probably some other stuff as well that I’m not aware of)
Everything is temporary. If we were talking about a niche language, I might worry a little bit that it could just loose momentum and die. But TS is a juggernaut. The only way typescript “dies” is when JS integrates enough of its features to make it redundant.
Besides that, if Oracle managed to allow Java to continue to grow and flourish, I have confidence that MS can do at least that well.
Everything is temporary except for people’s opinion on Microsoft.
The company is spending a ton on supporting developers, tools, and open source projects but every time they get mentioned people just hark tired lines of past ill deeds.
I think people should in general put as little trust as possible in corporations. Ensuring your tools, language and platform are as free as possible is a good idea.
Just look at the problematic situation for VS Code extensions by Microsoft, which are non-free.
I can agree with the goal but sadly the corporations have already got their claws deep in the tech stack.
Facebook control React. Google has its hands around Chromium, Android, Go, Angular and I’m sure dozens of others. Then of course Microsoft now own npm, GitHub etc. You’re making your life very difficult if you entirely avoid corporate entities.
If we don’t give corporations credit when they do run projects well then there’s no incentive for them to not go full on capitalist greed and destroy them.
Maybe Im reading the vibe wrong but to me, it seems like when it comes to the programmer/sysadmin/poweruser side of Microsoft, they seem pretty good in terms of not being total shit. Their “normie” facing side though seems hella shady though. Things like ads in windows, the speculated subscription model for windows, office 365, one drive spam.
For example, things like vscode, WSL, winget, power tools, the new console app, powershell, typescript, opening up .net to native cross platform. All these things are pretty sweet and seem like something they wouldn’t be interested in doing.
It almost feels like there are two Microsofts right now and they are at odds with each other. So yeah, I guess enjoy it while it lasts, but always be ready to drop them like a sack of potatoes.
Excuse me but I have it from a very reputable source that the saying goes “fool me once…
Shame on… Shame on you.
Fool me-- can’t get fooled again”
Bill Gates was and still is a shady piece of shit. Microsoft is a lot better without him - but that’s a low bar.
Personally what bothers me is that they’re starting to treat developers as users, the same as they treat Grandpa’s operating system, or Beth in accounting’s office suite: make everything “easy” and “intuitive” and “helpful”. I became a developer because I got tired of my computers getting in my way, so now I make them do what I want. I don’t want or need an intuitive, helpful interface. If you’re going to make a tool for me to use, just make the tool do that thing and that’s it.
I’ve mostly moved on from GitHub, only using it for little pushes because the green dots look good for prospective employers.
I’m curious, do you like cryptic errors from compilers, or do you like it when the compiler author provides some hints about a mistakes?
Or do you just not make mistakes?
do you worry that Microsoft is going to eventually do the Microsoft thing and horribly fuck it up for everyone?
I’m not really sure what you have against Microsoft, or what “Microsoft classic” you’d be referring to…
In the last 10 years or so they pretty much moved everything C# related to Core, cross platform and open source. Even the decision making for the language is “Open source” - Microsoft is not really behaving the same as the Microsoft from 2000…
Soo, I don’t really know how they could possibly fuck it up. They might add more and more features you might not like, but you could just choose to stick to an older version of the language
If I take my json and add a .yaml extension it works
If I take my c code and add a .cpp it works
If I take my js code and add a .ts
… it doesn’t work
TS is not a superset of JS
sagethesagesage
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Kalabasaany in front of parameters, but there are other edgecases too, and when you have a really big codebase that needs to be converted it’s a real pain.
Perfectly valid, and extremely commonly used, coding pattern in JavaScript. Throws an exception in TypeScript.
I know a cool library you can use to convert .ts files in Js! It’s called tsc!
/s
In TypeScript, it fails. You can’t treat an object as an arbitrary key/value pair. That’s a good thing… but still, it means TypeScript is not a superset of JavaScript.
No, it doesn’t fail. It compiles to perfectly valid JS that runs exactly as you’d expect. The type checking itself errors, because you’ve made an error - but the compilation isn’t prevented by this error.
So yes, Typescript is a superset of JavaScript.
That’s because you’re missing the distinction between compiler and type checker. The compiler doesn’t check types, it strips them. The type checker only checks types, it doesn’t compile. They are often used in conjunction, though increasingly the compilation is done by e.g. esbuild.
But there is nothing “bizarre” about the code running, since literally, TS is a superset of JS.
if I take my c code and add a cpp extension it works
and I pointed out that it doesn’t if your C code has a variable called “class”.
I’m not concerned about the Microsoft’s involvement. TypeScript shows an immature tooling ecosystem even on its own merits.
I posted some of my concerns earlier, along with a basic problem challenge (that I can easily do in many other languages) that nobody managed to solve: programming.dev/comment/2734178
This comment just seems weird no matter which angle I try to approach it from.
immature tooling ecosystem
It’s over a decade old now. I wouldn’t call that immature.
Looking at your linked comment…
following a basic tutorial somehow ended up spending multiple seconds just to transpile and run “Hello, World!”.
lorty
silas
spartanatreyuhello.ts containing: console.log(“hello world”);deno run hello.ts (time taken to run command: 0.037s)[…] 3 different ways of specifying the files and settings you want to use […] 3 incompatible ways to define and use a “module”
Yes, that tends to happen as ecosystems evolve over time. Typescript allows developers to use modern standards-compliant modules, while maintaining backwards compatibility for older code.
embracing duck typing means […]
One of typescript’s strengths is that its type system isn’t all or nothing. Typescript will support duck typers, but it isn’t forced or limited to that. You can add as much or as little typing as you want. In theory, this means that the language supports simple beginners up to experts creating turing-complete theorem solvers at compile time. In practice, this means a much smoother onboarding and porting experience.
Have a “generalized fibonacci” module taking 3 inputs […]
I’m not sure if this is the basic problem challenge or the hello world example was. It seems a bit ambiguous as to what you really want, but it’s easy to create a module that takes inputs and produces outputs while running on backend servers, in browsers, and in CLIs.
Obviously the actual programs are trivial. The question is, how are the tools supposed to be used?
So you say to use deno? Out of all the tutorials I found telling me what tools to use, that wasn’t one of them (I really thought this “typescript” package would be the thing I was supposed to use; I just checked again on a hot cache and it was 1.7 seconds real time, 4.5 seconds cpu time, only 2.9 seconds if I pin everything to a single core). And I swear I just saw this week, people saying “seriously, don’t use deno”. It also doesn’t seem to address the browser use case at all though.
In other languages I know, I know how to write 4 files (the fib library and 3 frontends), and compile and/or execute them separately. I know how to shove all of them into a single blob with multiple entry points selected dynamically. I know how to shove just one frontend with the library into a single executable. I know how to separately compile the library and each frontend, producing 4 separate artifacts, with the library being dynamically replaceable. I even know how to leave them as loose files and execute them directly (barring things like C). I can choose between these things all in a single codebase, since there are no hard-coded project filenames.
I learned these things because I knew I wanted the ability from previous languages I’d learned, and very quickly found how the new language’s tools supported that.
I don’t have that for TS (JS itself seems to be fine, since I have yet to actually need all the polyfill spam). And every time I try to find an answer, I get something that contradicts everything I read before.
That is why I say that TS is a hopelessly immature ecosystem.
It sounds like to me that you’ve taken your knowledge of your commonly used languages for granted, and assumed a new language would be just as easy. But if you watch a developer who is dipping their toe into that ecosystem for the first time you’ll find them making mistakes and running into footguns you didn’t know were possible.
Regardless of the language, not having a proper guide leaves devs susceptible to the incorrect blogospam that’s out there, where engagement is rewarded over correctness.
Ignore all of the blogospam.
The two things you need to know:
Here’s my shortened version of number 2.
The beginning:
The false start:
The resumption:
async/await/Promise() syntax sugaring, to make asynchronous programming easier… (rest/spread operator) syntax sugaring, to make destructuring and variadic functions easier?? Nullish coalescing operator syntax sugaring??=/&&=/||= Logical assignment syntax sugaringThe current state of things
Language-wise
Runtime-wise
Tooling wise
For your simple fibonacci example:
console.log() and see result in browser’s console.Deno.serve() and see result in network requests/responsesconsole.log() and see result in terminal