Palestinians have been occupied, murdered and denied their rights for decades. To call the events of today “unprovoked” is outrageous.
@Miriamm The palestinians launched 1947 together with arab states a war against Israel, lost it and rejected the UN's two-state solution. The maps you show are a result of those palestinian and arab aggresions and are therefore missleading and manipulative.

@RoterClaus @Miriamm

I used to support Israel. But you are mistaken. These Maps show Israeli violations of International Law,

@Ulzana @Miriamm The West Bank settlements (seen in the last map) are a violation of international law, but in no way justify Hamas' violence.

However, the conflict was launched in 1947 by the Palestinians and their Arab allies through a war of aggression, contrary to international law, with the aim of extinguishing all Jewish life in the region. This war and its goals continue due to the constant Palestinian aggressions to this day and are anti-Semitic and deeply despicable.

@RoterClaus @Miriamm

This year israel has murdered over 200 Palestinians, and seized even MORE land.

Are you saying the Palestinians have no right to deal with homicidal maniacs, which is what the so called "Settlers" are?

@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm Israel has killed Palestinian terrorists in the context of armed conflict, with a small number of incidental, deeply troubling civilian casualties. Palestinian terrorists intentionally target civilians for murder, kidnapping, and rocket fire. These are not the same.

@DanHakimi @RoterClaus @Miriamm

I'm sorry but to call the systematic murder of children accidental is beyond belief.

And that's NOT me saying it.

@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm Israel is not engaged in "the systematic murder of children."

@DanHakimi @RoterClaus @Miriamm

Having a conversation with some people is just impossible.

I am blocking his because I can't talk to pretenders

@Ulzana @DanHakimi @RoterClaus @Miriamm I have read your thread here. From an outside perspective you seem the one incapable of dialogue. Those people didn’t insult you or belittle your points, they just made counter arguments. If you are just looking for people to agree with you, maybe Twitter or Facebook is more appropriate
@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm Lol. The dude replies with a totally unrelated series of quotes, and then blocks me because *I'm* impossible to talk to.

@Ulzana @DanHakimi @RoterClaus @Miriamm

To claim something is systemtic needs to have data to support it. I expect to see a reply that links this data beyond your 'belief'

Otherwise it is you saying that all Israeli citizens approve of killing children.

@Ulzana @DanHakimi @RoterClaus @Miriamm Are you saying killing raping and kidnapping civilians like they've been doing for the last two days is ok?
@DanHakimi @Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm Like the Nazis did, they also killed a lot of terrorists during the 1940s. So did the USA in Afghanistan and Iraq. But the thing is, when an occupied people fight against the occupant it is only the occupant who call them terrorists. The rest of the world calls them freedom fighters.
@kjetil_kilhavn @Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm the victims of the Holocaust were not "terrorists," they did not murder innocent civilians. The victims of the holocaust were, themselves, innocent civilians. Your racist attempt to draw an equivalence between the Jewish people and their own oppressors is pathetic. You should be ashamed of both your shitty logic and your brazen cruelty.
@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm where did you read that the current attacks from Gaza were in response to settlers? Hamas released a statement but did not mention the West Bank iirc

@simmer @RoterClaus @Miriamm

No offense, but of course Gaza is the largest concentration camp built in the history of the world. Do you think that the murder of their relatives MUST take place within Gaza?

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20230108_the_occupied_territories_in_2022_largest_number_of_palestinians_killed_by_israel_in_the_west_bank_since_2004

@simmer @Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm Hamas doesn’t give a shit about the West Bank because it’s controlled by the PLO. At this point Gaza should be considered a separate state.

@galad @simmer @RoterClaus @Miriamm

The people of Gaza care just as much about the people of the West bank as they do themselves.

@Ulzana @simmer @RoterClaus @Miriamm Hamas are not the same as the regular people of Gaza. They’re a proxy group for Iran.

@galad @simmer @RoterClaus @Miriamm

Oh please spare me the meaningless rhetoric

Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas

JERUSALEM (AP) — A new poll released Tuesday finds a dramatic surge in Palestinian support for Hamas following last month's Gaza war, with around three quarters viewing the Islamic militants as victors in a battle against Israel to defend Jerusalem and its holy sites.

AP News
@RoterClaus @Ulzana @Miriamm
Of course, nothing has changed at all in those 76 years. Israel is still surrounded by hostile Arab neighbors eager to sacrifice everything to ... aide their Palestinian brothers? Israel has no arsenal, no allies, no way of defending herself?
The Netanyahu régime fucked up. They fucked up really bad.

@Benjaminblackoak @RoterClaus @Miriamm

Other than a modern air force, an up to date military and agreements with almost all of the Arab States, a completely accurate analysis. ☹️

@RoterClaus @Ulzana @Miriamm To be expecially clear: the occupation is not a violation of any law. Population transfer to occupied territory is, but since some of the territory in question is under dispute, and "settlements" mean very many different things, the situation is rather complicated.

@DanHakimi @RoterClaus @Miriamm

The History is rather complicated, the situation is simplicity itself.

A racist Fascist State is oppressing the population of illegally occupied territory, in which the inhabitants have NO RIGHTS at all. Their land can be arbitrarily seized, and the so called settlers can act with impunity against Palestinians.

@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm there's nothing racist about Israel, it's the worl'ds most successful example of a socialist democracy, the occupation is perfectly legal considering it comes in the context of a mutual armed conflict, the inhabitants have the same rights as any occupied people anywhere, and calling the situation "simplicity" is a strange lie.

@DanHakimi @RoterClaus @Miriamm

I'm sorry, but WHO ARE YOU KIDDING?

Israelis make no secret of their racism.

As a Jew Myself I am appalled. That you're not even aware of this means you're wearing glasses a mile thick.

I checked ALL these quote from Israels government officials and ALL were actually said...

Law of Return - Wikipedia

@RanDomino @Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm every nation has an immigration policy. Israel, being a relatively young nation of people who were expelled and banned from their homeland on and off for millennia, and being established as the safe place of last resort for people who have been oppressed in every other place they called home, welcomes the Jews, the indigenous people for whom it was founded. This does not resemble a lack of rights for other immigrants.
@DanHakimi @Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm So you agree that Israel has an explicitly racist immigration policy, got it. I'm not interested in your excuses for it. Also, Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine, including the territories occupied in 1948 and 1967. The oppression of Jewish people in Russia and Germany does not give Zionists the right to steal land from Palestinians.
@RanDomino @Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm "the Palestinian people" were not a people in 1948. The term was used to describe whoever happened to live in Palestine, a British colony. They were Turkish colonists, Syrian colonists, Jordanians, etc. Arabs. The Arab people are indigenous to Arabia, and their conquest of their surroundings can be likened to European conquest. Zionists rebelled against the British, and colonists who enjoyed the British colony didn't like it.

@DanHakimi @Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm Palestinians are genetically mostly Canaanite. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews

Jewish people have historical continuity only in Tiberias and Jerusalem, and frequent presence in just a handful of other locations in the past 1500 years. Zionists openly admitted they were colonists to Palestine, as shown by the name of this group: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Jewish_Colonization_Association

Also, thanks again for agreeing that Israel has an explicitly racist immigration policy.

DNA from the Bible's Canaanites lives on in modern Arabs and Jews

A new study of ancient DNA traces the surprising heritage of these mysterious Bronze Age people.

National Geographic

@RanDomino @Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm their intent was to buy land. They called that "colonization" because they didn't have a name for them. And regardless of what this particular group called their behavior, the nation there now is entirely independent of any... Uh, colonial organization? Which specifically disbanded? Is that really what you're arguing?

Having an immigration policy is not racist. Fuck off, troll.

@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm Was it Hamas goal to destroy Israel state?

@pomnik_psa @RoterClaus @Miriamm

Hamas is well aware that they lack the power to destroy Israel

@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm Then they postulated it just to give excuse for Israel to beat them down.

@pomnik_psa @RoterClaus @Miriamm

They are desperate, and I don't pretend to know what they expect. There are two million people whose food, fuel, and electricity are controlled by Israel, and who are bombed every day by airplanes,

What would YOU do? What would I do?

@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm "bombed every day by airplanes"

are you sure that happened?

Israel/OPT: Civilian deaths and extensive destruction in latest Gaza offensive highlight human toll of apartheid

In its early May offensive on the occupied Gaza Strip, Israel unlawfully destroyed Palestinian homes, often without military necessity, in what amounts to a form of collective punishment against the civilian population, Amnesty International said today. Israel also conducted apparently disproportionate air strikes which killed and injured Palestinian civilians, including children.   Amnesty International investigated nine Israeli airstrikes that resulted […]

Amnesty International

@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm

that article does not prove that claim

"bombed every day by airplanes"

@pomnik_psa @RoterClaus @Miriamm

Tell me what is the difference between being bombed every day and bombed every week?

@Ulzana @RoterClaus @Miriamm

quite obviously there are 6 days of difference

also this is also a claim you should substantiate?

I have no illusions that Israeli gov. wants all the worst for Palestinians and their aim is to REMOVE each and every one of them

but they also cannot use such overt methods as Hamas and need to be a bit more sneaky with it

Human rights in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories

Stay up to date on the state of human rights in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.

Amnesty International

@pomnik_psa @RoterClaus @Miriamm

Gaza is 1/4 the size of NYC. It is the largest concentration camp in the world, and it's people are being killed every day.

This uprising is an attempt to appeal to the World for recognition

@RoterClaus @Miriamm That's kinda like saying Native Americans launched a coordinated attack against Great Britain.

None of this is simple, but … the OP has a very valid point

@tw @RoterClaus @Miriamm

None of this is simple is the only truth I see today.

@tw @RoterClaus @Miriamm No it is not, because Jews originally came from that region. They were driven away from their homeland by the Romans almost two millennia ago, but they always kept the hope of one day returning to the land of Israel alive in their religion and culture. The antisemitism they experienced in their diaspora eventually led to the rise of Zionism, and in the aftermath of the Shoah, Zionism became a huge mass movements as huge numbers of Jewish survivors just refused to stay in Europe any longer.

Jews and Palestinians used to be the same ethnic group, originally, they just got separated by religion. You find the same "Semitic" faces amongst both Jews and Palestinians, with a few more European features in some of the former, their genetic sequences look very similar, it's just that one group decided to stick to its ancestral tribal religion and got punished for that by the Romans when, after a long series of Jewish rebellions against them, they decided to kick the Jews out of their Holy Land. The Palestinians are the descendants of those who converted to other religions, often peculiar Christian denominations splitting off mainstream Christianity early and never really spreading further than a few dozen kilometres, and eventually, they adopted the Arabic language and an Arabic cultural identiy, most of them becoming Muslims, after the Jordan valley was conquered by the Arabs.

Just like Serbs, Coats, and Bosniaks, are from the same ethnic Serbo-Croatian stock but divided by culture and religion, Jews and Palestinians share a common origin, the only difference is that the Jews were driven from their home and forced to live in the diaspora for so long that without their religion, they would have been assimilated by and absorbed into their surrounding cultures centuries ago. They learned to survive despite all the antisemitism, despite the murders and pogroms, but when the Nazis used modern industrial methods in their effort to murder them all at once, many of the survivors knew they had to return to the land that used to be their own and take it back.

Which of course was a complete disaster for the Palestinians who lived there, and who were now driven from their land. The UN proposed a plan to divide the land between the Israelis and the Arabs, but the Arabs refused, attacking the young nation of Israel and trying to destroy it, and then they lost, several times, and Israel began to occupy the entire West Bank. Then the rise of right-wing religious Zionism happened, and ever since, more and more Jewish settlers have been building settlements in the West Bank. After Rabin was murdered by a right-wing extremist, Israeli governments have been treating the expansion of Israel towards the Jordan river, the fragmentation of the Palestinian landscape and the disenfranchisement of Palestinians, more or less as their G-d given right, quoting scripture to decide which land belongs to Israel, and the two-state solution is basically dead, if it was ever alive in the first place.

What we've got in Israel and Palestine is basically two nations, two nationalisms, claiming the same piece of land for themselves, and both of them actually have legitimate claims, which makes this impossible to resolve IMHO. It is a tragedy, but one for which mostly the long gone empires of ages ago are to blame--and empires could never leave the Jordan valley alone because it is such an important river oasis in an otherwise mostly dry and barren piece of the world, and because it sits in a crucial part of the Eastern Mediterranean shore line connecting North Africa, Asia, and Europe. I fear this will continue until the Jordan dries out, until the entire country becomes a dry, hot, deadly desert forever, and that will eventually happen anyway because of all the CO2 modern industrial civilisation has put into the air. It is an ongoing tragedy, there is no side in this conflict which are the "good guys" and no side which are the "bad guys", although the Hamas and the Hisbollah are ruthless terrorists, and I can't see how this can ever end in any way which is not utter tragedy for everyone--unless the entire idea of nations and nationalism is completely abandoned and forgotten.

@RoterClaus @Miriamm

Sorry, but are we talking about those people who lived in Palestine before folks showed up with a plan to create a Jewish State?

Because those people were removed from their homes through bribery, promises (subsequently broken), and outright acts of terrorism, and Israel gained statehood because the world (UN) was ashamed of their failures to protect Jews from attempted genocide during WWII (plus all the prior pogroms).

But two wrongs can never make a right.

@RoterClaus @Miriamm Europe is so shamed about what the Germans, and their supporters in occupied countries, did to the jews during the 1930s and 1940s that the European Union now silently accept genocide. It is a disgrace that history will not ignore.
Other groups suffered much the same fate as jews, but there is no state for Romani people in for instance Bavaria. Much easier to give away someone else's homeland...
@Miriamm The history of this area and is long and complex. No one news report or one map can ever convey all the issues at hand.
@Miriamm when they say militants have entered israel but what they mean is occupied palestine
“Disappearing Palestine” - the Maps that Lie - AIJAC

Appearing regularly in pro-Palestinian books, articles, social media and websites here and overseas - and even in mainstream media - is a series of maps purporting to show the gradual Palestinian dispossession of their land at the hands of the Jews/Israelis. Their problem is that this series of maps is riddled with misrepresentations and omissions...

AIJAC
@EyalL The important part of the article is towards the end where it reminds us “The map is labelled “British Mandate Palestine”, yet fails to show that the Mandate initially included Transjordan. Furthermore, the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine did not commence until 1922. At the start of 1917 , Palestine was still part of the Ottoman Empire, following whose defeat in World War 1 the area came under interim government by the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration.” @Miriamm