Mastodawn

Sugar Grits Underground Oct 3, 2023

I've seen a lot of voices saying that " #Mastodon does not need to grow to be successful", and "we don't need to put in more effort to welcome new users", and frankly this attitude is pissing me off.

"The reason that social media did not work as promised is not because we misunderstood the nature of the internet and the possibilities of digital connectivity, but because oligarchs took over the digital space."

If there is any chance of using social media as a force for democracy, we desperately need a system that _cannot_ be taken over by the oligarchs. And, right now, the #Fediverse is the best candidate for this.

Thus, there is homework that needs to be done. We cannot just rest on our laurels and proclaim that the tech is already good enough, and that the #Fediverse tech approach somehow magically solves all the problems of other social media platforms. We need to get away from the overwhelmingly white male European/North American user base and look for ways on how to increase #BIPOC user participation - not to mention participation of users from Asia, Africa, and South America.

If we try to maintain the Fediverse as the home of a small, incestuous group of people with a particular tech slant, the oligarchs will win.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23896050/protest-decade-2010-revolutionary-handbook-vincent-bevins-arab-spring-brazil-occupy-hong-kong

The 2010s was a decade of protests. Why did so many revolutions fail?

Journalist Vincent Bevins grapples with grassroots movements from Egypt to Brazil to Hong Kong.

Vox

Jürgen Hubert Oct 3, 2023

Since this post is making the rounds, let me plug "Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles" - my long-running project for translating old German folk tales into English and releasing them under a Creative Commons Zero license.

509 translations have been released so far!

https://www.patreon.com/sunkencastles

Get more from Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles on Patreon

creating Public Domain translations of classic German folk tales

Patreon

PJ "Vote Green" Coffey Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert

On Instagram/Tiktok vlogger John Greene organised people and shamed a company into slashing the price of TB medicine which will save a huge number of lives.

On here? Influential accounts will masturbate loudly about their anarchist street cred and tie themselves in knots to avoid _doing_ anything. Destroy capitalism or it's "nibbling around the edges".

Gen X learned hopelessness is strong here. Little belief that change is possible. Doomer voices are loud.

:-/

Jürgen Hubert Oct 3, 2023

@Homebrewandhacking "Learned hopelessness" - this is a good phrase.

Reminds me of the typical German #Schrebergarten attitude. "I have my own small garden lot, and as long as no one bothers me, I am going to ignore what happens elsewhere."

PJ "Vote Green" Coffey Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert

Ah, I really should learn German, it's a wonderfully expressive language.

Jürgen Hubert Oct 3, 2023

@Homebrewandhacking It does have its charms. 😉

Veza85UE Oct 6, 2023

@Homebrewandhacking @juergen_hubert beautifully captured 👏
I think I've adapted to the mUh rEVoLuTIon people on here better as they seem to involve fewer tankies (automatic block) than on twitter so it's been easier to get out of my bubble (which often intersects theirs for specific local issues anyway). So I'm used to gently rolling my eyes out and moving on to the next toot, but I can see how it's a lot more off-putting for less online people and/or users outside Western urbanites.

⁂ Fish Id Wardrobe Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert "Mastodon does not need to grow to be successful" and "the tech is already good enough" are in no way the same thing.

The first is true. The Fediverse is a success.

The second is obviously false.

Jürgen Hubert Oct 3, 2023

@fishidwardrobe

It's not just about the tech, but also about the culture. There is still too much unwillingness to seriously engage with the views of people from different backgrounds here.

⁂ Fish Id Wardrobe Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert Is there? You must be looking at very different posts to me … which would itself indicate diversity.

Spell it out for me. Which people? What backgrounds?

Jürgen Hubert Oct 3, 2023

@fishidwardrobe Start with following some of the people active on #BlackMastodon and similar hashtags, and move on from there.

⁂ Fish Id Wardrobe Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert Well, those would be people who are … on Mastodon. They are already here.

I'm aware of the argument that there aren't enough black people here, and I'm sympathetic, but that problem is made of people. There is no technical change you can call for that will fix it.

GeofCox Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert

We're part of a long struggle between the commons and enclosure.

Of course the capitalists want to privatise the internet. That's what they did with the enclosures of common land at the very inception of capitalism, and what they did to the world during colonialism, and what the neoliberals did to public services in the 80s. But us commoners just won't lie down, will we?

It's true some of us sometimes get tired of the struggle and check out to try building a separate, secluded, self-sufficient community. Maybe they'll achieve by example what the rest of us work for through engagement?

If you're interested in a dramatisation of this dynamic, by the way, look up Arnold Wesker's 'Roots' trilogy - a jewish family fights fascism in the 30s, but via its encounter with less politically aware rural working class people, turns towards a more peaceful rural idyll - though in the process setting a new seed of class and gender consciousness in that same rural working class community...

Nate Gaylinn Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert Why do you assume that we need one, unified social media space for the whole world? We have never had that. Twitter pretended to be that, and caused at least as much harm as good in the effort. Are we sure we want to try again?

Maybe what we need is many smaller, more intimate communities of people who actually care about one another? Maybe authentic connection means more than volume? When people say Mastodon doesn't have to be big to be successful, that's what they mean.

Jürgen Hubert Oct 3, 2023

@ngaylinn Oh, I'd be quite happy with multiple large social media spaces - as long as they are not run by oligarchs.

But, right now, the #Fediverse is the biggest non-oligarch-run social media alternative, with #Mastodon as its biggest application. Thus, I am in favor of pushing these as much as possible.

Nate Gaylinn Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert I just don't believe that bigger is better. Or that Mastodon should "win" at social media.

I get wanting to further reduce the influence of oligarchs on public discourse, but I wouldn't assume that Mastodon is the solution. It wasn't meant to be "the new Twitter," and many long time users are worried about what will happen if others try to make it that.

It's a bit like a bunch of folks from the big city relocating to a farming commune in the country and declaring "this would be a great place for the next metropolis." It was meant to be a refuge from all that, where things work differently.

VulcanTourist [MOVED]Oct 3, 2023

@ngaylinn @juergen_hubert

It's not likely that the Fediverse could even be bent into something resembling Twitter. It's fundamentally a different species from the network protocol on up. If it scaled to meet the needs of every human, it would have so many "owners" that we couldn't mentally visualize them all.

Jürgen Hubert Oct 3, 2023

@VulcanTourist @ngaylinn

There are other examples of large social media networks. Twitter was never the biggest one - just more influential than most.

The Fediverse should very much be its own thing - but it needs a much bigger user base, _especially_ of people from backgrounds that are underrepresented here.

Bodhipaksa Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert @VulcanTourist @ngaylinn I completely agree that the user base is too small. I'd argue that those who don't want this place to grow are coming from a place of privilege. What's it like to be the speaker of a minority language and not be able to use it here? Or not to be able to find solidarity here with others from the same ethnic minority?

With the current user-base, this place will remain comfortable for white English speakers, but isolating for many others.

Nate Gaylinn Oct 3, 2023

@bodhipaksa @juergen_hubert @VulcanTourist I see the point you make about needing a larger community to include everybody, but that's just one way to think about DEI. It's kind of a "gotta catch 'em all" model, where success means including enough examples from every category.

What if we flipped that around, though? I think we want for every person to have some place where they belong and can get exposed to many perspectives different from their own. If we take that definition of success, we don't need every kind of person in every community. We don't need very large communities, either.

Not that there's one right definition of diversity or inclusion. Multiple perspectives are valid.

VulcanTourist [MOVED]Oct 4, 2023

@ngaylinn @bodhipaksa @juergen_hubert

The whole point of the current model is that anyone(s) with the nominal skills, resources, and motivation can create a Fediverse node of their own to serve an otherwise unaddressed need. That assumes that one doesn't already exist with sufficient overlap of purpose (and scale). Perhaps advertising the diversity of existing nodes and roles could be better addressed. I couldn't decide which one to join and made the easy choice.

Nate Gaylinn Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert @VulcanTourist I strongly agree we should make the Fediverse more inclusive and diverse. That follows logically from my values, and the founding values of the Fediverse.

I just don't see why you say it should be bigger. That doesn't follow, and needs some other justification.

Ken Larson Oct 3, 2023

@ngaylinn @juergen_hubert

The continuation of democracies and the planet itself will largely depend on our learning enough about each other to take the next step in evolutionary survival by turning greed into understanding and conflict into cooperation.
https://rosecoveredglasses.blogspot.com/2020/01/what-can-we-learn-from-people-who-are.html

What Can We Learn From People Who Are Different From Us To Avoid Future 'Walls Of Faces'?

Vietnam War Wall of Faces Our active duty military soldiers are the best in the world to defend us if war occurs. They cannot defend a...

Jim Lillicotch Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert
I haven't seen much of this. None here
#Mastodon will keep growing with Elon spurts here and there. The best thing is that it's exactly what you make it.

Jürgen Hubert Oct 3, 2023

@jimlil That's just it - we don't really see much ethnic diversity here.

Twitter, for all of its many, many faults, made it easy to connect with people from all sorts of different backgrounds. I followed lots of people from #BlackTwitter . I made contact with folklore enthusiasts from Africa and Asia.

But #Mastodon and the #Fediverse seems to be overwhelmingly white and European/North American.

Jim Lillicotch Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert
Isn't that how all these things started?

volkris Oct 3, 2023

@jimlil a problem (in my view at least) is that even if all these things tended to start that way, the attitudes I see on this platform tend to not only accept but embrace the homogeneity in ways I’m not sure were common in other examples.

There’s a real lack of diversity here, and there are a LOT of people cheering it, resisting growth and handwringing over the possibility that things might change and diverse perspectives might show up in feeds.

From what I’ve seen that often feeds into the “we don’t need growth” stance.

I don’t think it’s healthy.

@juergen_hubert

Jim Lillicotch Oct 4, 2023

@volkris
As I said before, I don't see much *we don't need growth* here, but it seems to me it doesn't matter much what *they* say

volkris Oct 4, 2023

@jimlil well, FWIW, I do see a lot of that even though you don’t.

Different feeds and subscriptions, I suppose.

But if it matters, then FYI, there is a lot of that on this platform at least in some webs.

One problem is that people who take that position seem vocal about actively excluding new people, pushing for instance bans and such.

Jim Lillicotch Oct 4, 2023

@volkris
Perhaps you're looking for complaints? I'm not.
Growth is coming, like it or not.

volkris Oct 4, 2023

@jimlil I’m sure it depends on what instance you’re on and what hashtags you’re following.

I think the complaints pop up under hashtags like mastodon, fediverse, and twitter for me. That’s probably especially true as so many now believe remaining twitter users are awful and don’t want to see those supposedly awful people coming over here.

There’s a lot of tribalism out there when it comes to fediverse, and a lot of people wanting to exclude people from what they see as their tribe here.

Jim Lillicotch Oct 4, 2023

@volkris
They are all more than welcome to complain as much as they like & you're welcome to follow.
I like the instance I'm on and I much prefer to follow solutions rather than complaints & things that irritate for no reason.

volkris Oct 4, 2023

@jimlil I mean, I’m (probably) on your side in saying the more the merrier.

I WANT to see diversity of opinion that new people bring to the table.

But… there are so many who push for instances to not only block such new people, but also to block other instances that allow such new people.

I figure we might as well realize such folks are out there intentionally looking to cut instances off from each other, in part so we can push back against them.

Raccoon🇺🇸🏳️‍🌈Oct 3, 2023

@jimlil @juergen_hubert
Keep in mind that Mastodon started in Germany, and was majority European until the Twitter Fiasco.

If you are looking to follow more racially diverse crowds though, I recommend looking at hashtags like "BlackMastodon", "BlackFriday", and "BlackJoy". I will also note that I can think of three well-connected servers servers which are exclusively black. There is some hostility towards minorities from some servers, but a lot of us are working really hard to keep the main servers racism-free.

There's also a ton of LGBTQ people on here, as that was the first non-tech and non-political group to really embrace the Fediverse movement in the US. (I specify non-political because anarchists have always been big on here)

Virtue signal 💉💉💉🇺🇸 🇺🇦Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert

Mastodon/fedi will fail if it does not gain enough users to stem the tide of oligarch-backed fascism. They're already thinking of ways to outlaw fedi.

OG_zuul Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert i see a lot of folks here replying that they want to keep the black folks and other diverse communities away from mastodon "because that's what ruined twitter" so a bunch of darkies ruined twitter? or a raycist south african emerald mine beneficiary ruined twitter? it's amazing how for so many people the default is "blame black people" which is why i spend more time on bluesky than here. it's very very homogenous here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjYa-bR-H5Q

1-900-Blame-A-Nigger

YouTube

Elle 💗Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert I'd recommend not putting all the hopes of society on the adoption rate of ActivityPub.

Erin Kissane Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert No surprise that I agree, I'm sure, but I agree! I think this is very well said.

Loukas (They/Them) 🏳️‍⚧️Oct 3, 2023

@kissane @juergen_hubert agree +1

Koen de Jonge - SynQ Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert I like general direction of your post.

However: calling the current 'population' of the Fediverse 'a small incestuous group of people' is not going to get you where you want to be. Try to be positive about 'what already is' if you wish to grow it to a winning team. 😎

Veebs Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert "I want to use social media antisocially and everyone else should have to too"

Guys just pick a lane ok

Ángela Stella Matutina Oct 3, 2023

@juergen_hubert

There's a lot of Latin American users in the Fediverse. Not as much as we would like, because most people down here are oblivious to the whole commercial social media clusterfuck. Also they tend to stay where their friends and favorite celebrities are.

Most of us are at least bilingual, but most of you aren't and don't bother even to use machine translation. That could be a factor.

Author-ized L.J.Oct 4, 2023

@juergen_hubert Yeah this is why I'm on the fedi, and why I spend time and contribute here--not because it's technologically the best or socially the safest or fairest, but because it's the only one with a chance in hell of being OURS, that just might escape the march of enshittification. That makes it worth fighting for, worth the cost of pushing back on the endemic racism to create a better culture where more people might feel welcome.