Mastodawn

Deirdra Hahn Sep 2, 2023

Will Tuladhar-Douglas

One child came back from school with a copy of the dreadful Shirley Jackson story "The Lottery" in hand. Along with _Lord of the Flies_ it's a chunk of Cold War libertarian propaganda - so I promptly handed them a copy of Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas". I don't know if Le Guin actually intended her story as a point-by-point refutation of "The Lottery" but it does a magnificent job of exposing the underlying ideology and challenging it, right down to the question of what is acceptable in literature for 12 year olds - "Omelas" overtly discusses sex and drugs, with gentle humour, and condemns violence, while "The Lottery" features prudes who practice ritual murder.
If anyone here is teaching "The Lottery" or has a child for whom it is prescribed reading, I heartily suggest Le Guin's antidote to cultural poisoning.

Stone Bear Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox "I heartily suggest Le Guin's antidote to cultural poisoning."

That (half-)sentence stands all on its own. The world would be a better place if more people read her.

DeterioratedStucco Sep 2, 2023

@stonebear @yetiinabox
I applaud.

Joan Albright Sep 5, 2023

@stonebear @yetiinabox I still can't believe I never heard of her before college. (Best Ethics & Values class ever, that - all the reading was sci-fi. Only non-elective class I liked more was my American History class, where we only got halfway through the curriculum because he would stop to show us how all the battles went.)

@richh has moved Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox in what sense do you consider it libertarian? In so much as “the man is bad” and “public stonings/execution are not good”. But that’s not inherently libertarian (“minimising the states encroachment on individual liberties”), albeit I suspect that definition might be where our interpretations differ. I don’t want to be at cross-purposes. Agree that more people should read Le Guin, albeit I’ve not made it to Omelas yet.

@richh has moved Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox Likewise Flies could be considered quite anti-libertarian, showing the breakdown of morals when actions lack consequences from a broader societal expectation/rule of law (though the idea of the RN officer/“authority” arriving and everyone suddenly standing straight and behaving is a bit problematic in itself).

Sean Eric Fagan Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox Have you read https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-ones-who-stay-and-fight/?

The Ones Who Stay and Fight - Lightspeed Magazine

It’s the Day of Good Birds in the city of Um-Helat! The Day is a local custom, silly and random as so many local customs can be, and yet beautiful by the same token. It has little to do with birds---a fact about which locals cheerfully laugh, because that, too, is how local customs work. It is a day of fluttering and flight regardless, where pennants of brightly dyed silk plume forth from every window, and delicate drones of copperwire and featherglass---made for this day, and flown on no other!---waft and buzz on the wind.

Lightspeed Magazine

Oggie Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox I might also suggest Brave New World and 1984- BNW has the layered irony that the child might need pointed out (not a hand holding, I consider most 12 year olds quite bright enough- but just point out that it's intentionally supposed to be a flawed and broken society).

1984 is disquieting, but also a good read, and there's a lot there to look into.

Both of these are pretty good at illustrating the dangers of accepting surface values, and contain some interesting thoughts.

Token Sane Person Sep 2, 2023

@Oggie @yetiinabox

I read both 1984 and BNW at around 12 yo off my own bat. I found 1984 merely depressing; fascist dictatorships are bad for your health. Gee. BNW was more challenging. It's supposed to be a dystopia, but almost everyone is happy and well adjusted to their society. The only way Huxley could make it look bad was by introducing an unsophisticated religious bigot as viewpoint character.

Also neither society could work as described, which makes them difficult to critique.

Catearthjustice Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox I still remember the shock of horror I felt when I finished reading the lottery in high school and I do not recall any constructive class discussion of its ideological based content or any rebuttals. Thank you for this suggestion and I will go read leguin's story now for some long overdue healing

@yetiinabox I'm sorry to be dumb, but what are the problems with The Lottery? I swear I'm not trolling, I just have no idea what you mean and it's not so easy to search for.

Labrador Girl Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox Wait. Feeling dumb. I thought The Lottery was a cautionary tale about people being ok with cruelty as long as it was someone else suffering. What is the ideology?

Gretchen Anderson Sep 2, 2023

@labradorgirl @yetiinabox I have the same question. Maybe I didn’t quite get it?

silifi and/or queso Sep 3, 2023

@gretared @labradorgirl @yetiinabox no that is the intended reading of the story

RFern Sep 3, 2023

@gretared @labradorgirl @yetiinabox I think the OP didn't get it.

Evelyn Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox @xris I have always wondered what “The Lottery” was meant to mean (beyond “Be wary of small towns in New England” & “Be on time for stuff”). Could you point out some of the ways the Liberation and Cold War (are you think anti-communism, specifically?) themes are shown?

Severák Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox The Lottery plot (as described on Wikipedia) sounds exactly like some less known 70s horror movie. I would not be surprised at all if Dario Argento made a movie about it.

Tinu - Empress of Twerk Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox Thank you.

Gretchen Anderson Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox I understood the lottery to be condemnation of prudish culture but I was probably 12 when I read it. It’s more problematic I take it ?

Michael Markman Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox By all means boost Le Guin. But if you have to do it by misreading and mischaracterize other literature you undermine your own credibility. Furthermore, I can tell you, as a child of the cold war, that its propaganda was the opposite of libertarian. It was conformist.

Jennifer Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox I liked the Lottery, it was thought provoking. Why not discuss the Lottery with the kid after they read it, then discuss Le Guin after they read it? I mean I've read all kinds of things that I don't agree with but I'm glad I read them (Ayn Rand for example).

Jim in Yamaguchi

@yetiinabox
The Lottery's primary theme is the dangerous force of social pressure and mob mentality, and the ease with which people can ignore basic morality when pushed to do so by social or religious authority.
It's got nothing to do with "libertarianism."
You didn't understand that story.

Woozle Hypertwin Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox We were taught The Lottery in school, but my main take-away from it was "don't ever run a society like this, and anything that kind of resembles this sort of system is questionable at best".

JenK Sep 2, 2023

@yetiinabox I also recommend N.K. Jeminsin's The Ones Who Stay And Fight. http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-ones-who-stay-and-fight/

The Ones Who Stay and Fight - Lightspeed Magazine

It’s the Day of Good Birds in the city of Um-Helat! The Day is a local custom, silly and random as so many local customs can be, and yet beautiful by the same token. It has little to do with birds---a fact about which locals cheerfully laugh, because that, too, is how local customs work. It is a day of fluttering and flight regardless, where pennants of brightly dyed silk plume forth from every window, and delicate drones of copperwire and featherglass---made for this day, and flown on no other!---waft and buzz on the wind.

Lightspeed Magazine

Gojira1000 Sep 3, 2023

@yetiinabox That is a bizarre take. But the second bit, that kids should read more LeGuin, is quite correct.

Organized T. rex Sep 3, 2023

@yetiinabox Genuinely curious if you interpret The Lottery as an endorsement of the in-story town's lottery. Not trolling; just intrigued since I've always read the two stories as complementary.

silifi and/or queso Sep 3, 2023

@yetiinabox my dude I think you have completely misunderstood the point of "The Lottery"

der.hans Sep 3, 2023

@yetiinabox never heard of either, so picked up a copy of Omelas ( in a book of other LeGuin I don't know ) at the library today, thanks for the suggestion

Had to deal with Flies last year :(

kæt Sep 3, 2023

@yetiinabox Maybe /Lord of The Flies/ goes down different in the UK. I know (from being there) that our state school class just took it as a political satire on what elite English private schools do to people, and not really all that controversial, as it matched our general experience of the rule of their proteges. I know from our class discussions that it never really seemed to us that it was describing anything inherent in the human condition, just how barbaric education can damage people.

DapperDinobot Sep 5, 2023

Could be worse. Could've been The Handicapper General. Oof.

oceaniceternity Sep 12, 2023

@yetiinabox The only real antidote to cultural poisoning as you put, is to constantly be curious, to read widely, to associate with people you otherwise wouldn't, to try and understand the world as others do. So many books like LotF maintain an excessively dim view of human nature. My favorite book that refutes such a view is To End All Wars by Ernest Gordon, which is autobiographical, and about his experience in a Japanese POW camp.