Mastodawn

In an interview, Zelenskyy said Ukraine would lose its allies, if #Ukraine moved the war to Russia.

In essence, western politicians have created a fight, where Putin can kill everyone and destroy everything anywhere in Ukraine, and when it suits him, he can pull his troops back to Russia for a breather, before they return to rape and plunder some more.

This is what fear has done to the west: We have now accepted the rules set by a war criminal.

This is wrong.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/08/27/7417318/index.amp

Zelenskyy on war on Russia's territory: It carries a big risk that we will be left alone

Ukrainska Pravda

jsj Aug 28, 2023

@randahl @joshbuchea The solution was to take out Putin 30 years ago. The next best option is wholesale regime change, today. Dismantle it and rebuild. It’s not a real government anyway.

Jeramee Aug 28, 2023

@jsj @randahl @joshbuchea
We already did regime change in Russia.
The West called it Shock Therapy, and that's what created to opportunities for Putin to rise to power.

Why would we think another regime change by the West would improve anything? Take a look at Iran, Iraq, & Afghanistan for recent examples.

jsj Aug 28, 2023

@Jeramee @randahl @joshbuchea I don’t think it will “improve” anything. It **will** change things. We’ve lived in a stalemate for three decades. If we can’t meaningfully “improve” the situation, and the status quo results in *gestures at everything* the next best thing is to force change.

And comparing Russia to Iraq or Afghanistan is like comparing a praying mantis to a red balloon. They both exist on earth, but that’s about as much as they have in common.

Jeramee Aug 28, 2023

@jsj @randahl @joshbuchea

You forgot Iran with Iraq, Afghanistan, & Russia. And I'll spell it out for you: all 4 countries underwent regime changes because of US machinations, and all 4 are objectively worse off after the regime change.

So, your solution is continued US machinations and assassination?

If we want to improve anything at all, my country needs to change first.

Btw, when your solution is to advocate murder, you've lost.

jsj Aug 28, 2023

@Jeramee The problem with each of those cases is we didn't finish the job. US official policy is that we don't conquer anymore. We're not taking over countries any longer, officially. So we have to install people, and they eventually fuck us over. That's where we screw up. We never finish the job. And we're never willing to commit what it'll take to finish the job. Even if we were willing to pay the monetary costs, the bleeding hearts would bitch and moan about a million other excuses.

And sentences like "when your solution is to ... you've lost" only show a lack of experience and/or historical knowledge, truly. Lost what, exactly? What rules are you playing by? They're certainly not the rules people like Putin are playing by. Try explaining those rules to the many people who've fallen off balconies or flown through windows or whose planes fell out of the sky.

Jeramee Aug 29, 2023

No, the problem was that there was no legitimate reason to attack to begin with.

Kermit Roosevelt committed literal terrorism in Iran.

The Afghanistan & Iraq wars were based on outright lies.

And the US meddled in Russia since before the USSR was formed, and its formation was a direct response to security concerns from US aggression.

Finish the job? How? How many millions more people are you willing to murder to "finish the job?"

Jeramee Aug 29, 2023

300,000 civilian deaths from the second Iraq wars alone. That war was predicated on outright lies. That makes it a crime of aggression - a literal war crime.

How many more dead civilians are you willing to kill to "finish the job"?

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Iraq Body Count

jsj Aug 29, 2023

@Jeramee Give it up. You’re not convincing me.

Jeramee Sep 1, 2023

You're literally simping imperialism, then, when presented with the consequences of it, just sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming lalalala....

MemphisDaPlaya 🎲🎲Aug 28, 2023

Yeah, "they" seem to fear Putin same as trump. Lot's and Lot's of talk but little effective action.

gnarf Aug 28, 2023

Seems to me that Ukraine's allies indeed see attacks on russian soil as legitimate.

"German Foreign Minister refers to drone attacks on Moscow as lawful

Details: Russia has attacked Ukraine, and Ukraine is defending itself "under international law", Baerbock said during a joint press conference with Estonian Foreign Minister Margus Tsahkna.

Meanwhile, the Estonian minister stressed that Russia bears responsibility for everything going on in Ukraine."

https://news.yahoo.com/german-foreign-minister-refers-drone-122804942.html?guccounter=1

Yahooist Teil der Yahoo Markenfamilie

thegardendude 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🇵🇸Aug 28, 2023

@randahl There are no good options here. If the war is taken to Russia, even with western help, Putin would likely feel emboldened to actually carry out his nuclear threats because Russia itself is actually under attack. He knew he had no leg to stand on earlier because his invasion was illegal, and Russia was the aggressor. Much as I despise Russia's invasion of Ukraine, I want to avoid World War 3 much more.

Hämärän äänten kuuntelija Aug 28, 2023

@randahl Putler can threaten with nuclear weapons, which is passing for now. But for how long? He must understand that nuking Kiev means nuking Moscow etc. Empty threats have manageri to paralyze

NoctisEqui 🇺🇦🇵🇸🇪🇹🏳️‍🌈Aug 28, 2023

Putin deserves some ‘Grandmotherly Kindness’.
‘Let’s Do The Time Warp Again’ & make it 1917 without the Bolsheviks this time!

toxtethogrady Aug 29, 2023

@randahl What this attests to is that NATO still wants to support Ukraine, but not at the risk of a direct war with Russia. This is the kind of asymmetrical conflict that favors Putin, who has no qualms about being the aggressor so long as the conflict doesn't occur on his own soil...

Agora Sep 1, 2023

@randahl it’s beyond fucked up.