Ned YeungPreach it.
"History without discomfort is propaganda."
Big_in_Va@ned @WarnerCrocker so why do we keep having to rename things like buildings, streets and holidays and the such. I don’t get it history even though there’s bad it can’t be changed.
Warner Crocker@big_in_va Because history with OR without discomfort is propaganda.
@WarnerCrocker I think we should leave the things alone that make us all uncomfortable to avoid repeating some of the same mistakes that caused them. To many times I have seen things changed that people had no clue they were supposed to be offended by. The economic costs sometimes are not worth the benefits from what I have seen done so far. I always think of this my friend when these things are happening then rely on my faith to guide me. https://youtu.be/KqpcmQhnl48
Spock Dies - Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan (6/8) Movie CLIP (1982) HD
okanogen VerminEnemyFromWithin@big_in_va @WarnerCrocker
We name things to honor those named. It is correct to rename things to stop honoring those who shouldn't be honored.
We name things to honor those named. It is correct to rename things to stop honoring those who shouldn't be honored.
@Okanogen @WarnerCrocker I understand that perspective but, I think in those cases then what should be done and I haven’t seen done in my area, is that a notation should be added to whatever was renamed because of the offensive act or cause the previous person represented. If we try to erase or cover up history bad, good or otherwise we are doomed to repeat it. My parents generation fought WWII to eradicate so much terrible evil and yet I hear people denying the atrocities they fought against. Very sad.
@big_in_va @WarnerCrocker
Isn't it a bit awkward to call it "Ft. Bragg, Named For the Minor Player General and Racist Slave Rebellion Traitor Who Lost Every Battle He Led and Along With his Cohorts is Responsible For Hundreds of Thousand of American Deaths and Should NEVER Have Had This Fort Named For Him Except Lost Cause Traitors Need to Honor Their Criminal Ancestors No Matter How Incompetent"?
Nah, I'm good with renaming.
Isn't it a bit awkward to call it "Ft. Bragg, Named For the Minor Player General and Racist Slave Rebellion Traitor Who Lost Every Battle He Led and Along With his Cohorts is Responsible For Hundreds of Thousand of American Deaths and Should NEVER Have Had This Fort Named For Him Except Lost Cause Traitors Need to Honor Their Criminal Ancestors No Matter How Incompetent"?
Nah, I'm good with renaming.
Ray ☭@Okanogen @big_in_va @WarnerCrocker Precisely. Changing a street or building name to no longer honor a confederate general isn’t altering history and it’s just dishonest to say so. They’re traitors, they don’t get buildings or statues. A lot of those places were named in the modern era by descendants and supporters of the Confederacy anyway.
It’s not historical, it’s celebratory.
@Okanogen @big_in_va @WarnerCrocker My family has always been in the south (well, since we were brought there) and to this day we have to grow up driving on roads, attending schools, and passing by statues dedicated to people who literally thought we were subhuman and deserved to be enslaved. It’s cruel and it’s wrong. These monuments are part of an active campaign to rewrite history and that can’t be forgotten. They’re not just some “historical” thing that can’t be changed.
@lawas @Okanogen @big_in_va Been watching this discussion with great interest. I have a few thoughts. As the USSR was being dismantled I happened to be witness to the statue of Felix Dzerzhinsky being torn down. A much older and wiser Russian theatre colleague was with me and said at the time something along the lines of "getting rid of all of these statues and symbols won’t change the horrible things they did. But../1
@lawas @Okanogen @big_in_va it will make it easier for the next guys to take advantage of those with shorter memories.”
And here we are.
I hate to use the word balance in a conversation like this, but I think there is a balance to be achieved so that we remember and honor the good and remember and learn from the bad when it comes to these issues.
Monument, street names, city names, heck, even memoirs aren’t handed down by any divine right, /2
@lawas @Okanogen @big_in_va but are established and written by someone for a purpose or a cause. I’m all for removing and changing things when the purpose or cause is to acknowledge bad choices in the past. That said, removing and renaming is no more or less a symbol than erecting or establishing the thing in the first place. Acknowledge and remember it all, the good and the bad. /3
@lawas @Okanogen @big_in_va There are ways to do both, but it requires setting aside passion and ego to look for better solutions. /end
@WarnerCrocker @lawas @big_in_va
I'm going to say this very plainly and clearly.
It is white privilege to explain why black people need to tolerate "Jefferson Davis Avenue" or go to work every day passing a Nathaniel Bedford Forrest statue and indigenous people need to live in a Custer, SD, because "we" (not they) might somehow forget America's awful history of slavery and oppression.
No. Stop. There aren't "both sides" on this.
I'm going to say this very plainly and clearly.
It is white privilege to explain why black people need to tolerate "Jefferson Davis Avenue" or go to work every day passing a Nathaniel Bedford Forrest statue and indigenous people need to live in a Custer, SD, because "we" (not they) might somehow forget America's awful history of slavery and oppression.
No. Stop. There aren't "both sides" on this.
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va I absolutely agree. Like I said, I hated to use the word balance and was not attempting to both sides the issue of changing names, monuments, etc… That wasn’t my point.
@WarnerCrocker @lawas @big_in_va
Please better explain your point then, and whose passion and ego are you referring to? Be more specific and clear.
Please better explain your point then, and whose passion and ego are you referring to? Be more specific and clear.
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va Sure. Will do. Out of a good portion of the evening but when I’m back at the computer happy to be more specific and clear.
Neal Onions@WarnerCrocker @Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va
Kind of hard to explain coz so far you come across as having two diametrically opposing viewpoints. Your latter comments make good sense.
Street names, statues et al can give ongoing acceptance, even respect, to totally unjust people and by consequence their beliefs. But not only that, the people bequeathing the honor of street names, statues et al often themselves never deserved that right. And that is before one starts to examine names inflicted by colonial rulers.
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va I'll try to be more specific and more clear in this, I hope better, explanation of my point. For the sake of discussion, I'm going to use the term "monuments" to describe all the things we name or place: Statutes and other public edifices, streets, parks, military bases, ships, buildings, etc… /1
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va I am NOT using that term to describe things like flags, emblems, colors, or other signifiers. Those are certainly worth discussing and engender similar problems, but that wasn't the point I've been asked to clarify. /2
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va
In all cases these monuments are erected or named by someone(s) who seek, in their view, to honor someone or some event for what they believe is historical significance. They do not spring out of the ether. Someone(s) is PASSIONATE about the recognition. That someone(s) is the EGO, I'm referring to. Call that someone(s) the originator. That impulse has become part of the originator's EGO, and those who believe as they do. /3
In all cases these monuments are erected or named by someone(s) who seek, in their view, to honor someone or some event for what they believe is historical significance. They do not spring out of the ether. Someone(s) is PASSIONATE about the recognition. That someone(s) is the EGO, I'm referring to. Call that someone(s) the originator. That impulse has become part of the originator's EGO, and those who believe as they do. /3
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va
The same PASSION and EGO applies to those with similar views who support the ideas. The longer these monuments stand the more the community becomes identified and identifies itself with the symbol. Again, EGO. When challenged with new facts that might change minds, PASSION again comes into play as the EGO is challenged. /4
The same PASSION and EGO applies to those with similar views who support the ideas. The longer these monuments stand the more the community becomes identified and identifies itself with the symbol. Again, EGO. When challenged with new facts that might change minds, PASSION again comes into play as the EGO is challenged. /4
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va
Now, addressing the origination, at times and at a specific time it may indeed be in celebration of some person or event. OR it may be used to establish domination. Both feed into both the PASSION of the moment and the EGO piece of identity. /5
Now, addressing the origination, at times and at a specific time it may indeed be in celebration of some person or event. OR it may be used to establish domination. Both feed into both the PASSION of the moment and the EGO piece of identity. /5
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va Choosing to remove or alter these monuments involve the same PASSION and EGO than originating them in the first place. New moments, new PASSIONS from new rising EGOs defining new paths. There is no question that will create tension, even when done in relief, reparation or retribution. /6
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va
Those tensions don't just disappear when the old is replaced by the new. They are passed down through generations. They may be eased or blunted over time as new generations evolve, but they will never disappear. Assuming they will because of some moment of change is always a mistake. Both are sad facts of human history.
/7
Those tensions don't just disappear when the old is replaced by the new. They are passed down through generations. They may be eased or blunted over time as new generations evolve, but they will never disappear. Assuming they will because of some moment of change is always a mistake. Both are sad facts of human history.
/7
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va
The above is the point I was making. I hope I've made that point clearer and have sufficiently defined what I meant with the use of the words PASSION and EGO. /8
The above is the point I was making. I hope I've made that point clearer and have sufficiently defined what I meant with the use of the words PASSION and EGO. /8
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va That said, let me add the following. To be clear. I'm 67 years old. I grew up in the foothills of Virginia with grandparents who referred to the American Civl War as The War of Northern Aggression. I've been blessed with an at times reckless, but always restless, curiosity and also blessed with a career in the theatre that has opened me up to worlds far beyond and far more complex than any my grandparents or my parents knew or lived in. /9
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va
As I stated yesterday I'm all for removing symbols when the purpose or cause or origination acknowledges and celebrates something bad or wrong. But while removing or changing symbolizes important change and growth, I believe it needs to recognize what it is changing from and why the change is important to make. Otherwise the cycle of tensions just continues and PASSION and EGO will stunt any potential for growth. /10
As I stated yesterday I'm all for removing symbols when the purpose or cause or origination acknowledges and celebrates something bad or wrong. But while removing or changing symbolizes important change and growth, I believe it needs to recognize what it is changing from and why the change is important to make. Otherwise the cycle of tensions just continues and PASSION and EGO will stunt any potential for growth. /10
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va
We're living that now in this country as those tensions turn into what I believe are incomprehensible actions leading to reactionary political and social chaos. Perhaps this moment needs to play out. If you've followed any of my writing here and in other places, you should know I have a decidedly cynical view that it won't play out without violence. /11
We're living that now in this country as those tensions turn into what I believe are incomprehensible actions leading to reactionary political and social chaos. Perhaps this moment needs to play out. If you've followed any of my writing here and in other places, you should know I have a decidedly cynical view that it won't play out without violence. /11
@WarnerCrocker @lawas @big_in_va
That tension is injustice being confronted, and I'm good with it. Tear down all the slaver monuments and let the hit dogs holler. They lost, and these statues were put up to pretend they won.
That tension is injustice being confronted, and I'm good with it. Tear down all the slaver monuments and let the hit dogs holler. They lost, and these statues were put up to pretend they won.
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va I’m also good with tension because you are correct tension does bring about change. Unless it leads to warfare. Then it only temporarily suppresses tensions while the casualties are sorted out, the victors claim their spoils, and the losers lick their wounds. The underlying circumstances never really go away. The sad story of the human race.
@Okanogen @lawas @big_in_va Some In this country haven’t come to grips with the sins of our past as they have done in Germany. Plain and simple. It’s why I issue my twice weekly reminder that we’re still in a Civil War.
Finley Ⓥ@lawas @Okanogen @big_in_va @WarnerCrocker
It's changing history to say they should be honored in the first place.