DiegoAug 16, 2023

The French Revolution wasn't *that* violent in the beginning, in 1789-1792. You get the impression many people think French commoners spontaneously rose up and cut off the King's head but it was 3.5 years between the Bastille and Louis XVI's execution. Hell the King even participated in the first ever Bastille day celebration.

All hell broke loose, the Terror, the mass killings, *after* France got involved in an existential war and the King was exposed as a traitor and everyone panicked.

Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023

The first thing that happened is that the Crown went bankrupt and its authority disappeared. The King needed to regain legitimacy and for that he needed to share power more broadly. France had a growing ambitious bourgeoisie who was largely shut off from power and wouldn't let this opportunity slip.

The King lost control of the reform process but he was still a convenient lynchpin of the Constitution, which still gave him extensive veto powers.

Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023

The French were the ones to declare war on Austria, it's interesting to think of an alt history where cooler heads prevail and focus on internal regime consolidation rather than chasing the reactionary émigré nobles.

It's still a very difficult environment for the Revolution, after all the Austrians might end up declaring war themselves anyway.

Show threadDiego
And there's very little in the way of democratic tradition, most of the population is still peasants who maybe don't trust corrupt bishops, distant nobles or a traitor King, but still look up to their local priest, their local baron and have the general idea that some sort of King should be in charge. The engines of the Revolution, the urban artisans and the bourgeoisie, are in the minority and don't necessarily love each other.
Aug 16, 2023 at 3:53pmTusky
Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023

And if war does break out, it's dangerous even if successful, after all victorious generals create their own legitimacy.

In short, when state authority breaks down, things get confusing and mostly don't follow the plans of any of the actors involved.

IMHO limiting the power of the King was a good thing, and I think the whole would've turned out much better if France had managed to stay out of war for a while longer. But it would still have been a precarious regime.

Show threadAlonAug 16, 2023
@DiegoBeghin Under Louis XIV, 2 million French peasants starved to death during two wartime famines, because he prioritized bullshit wars over feeding the poor. It's telling that the Revolution never did that, and even Napoleon didn't.
Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023
@Alon Yup, even the brutal repression of the Vendée didn't rise to *that* level. Always good to shut up trads quick to criticise the violence of the revolution.
Show threadAlonAug 16, 2023
@DiegoBeghin The English-speaking NRx people I deal with (in ACOUP comments, sigh, why does mil history attract fash) haven't even heard of the Vendée. LR, sure, but that's not what we're talking about.
Show thread🌺 Cat PöñíçkøvāAug 16, 2023
@Alon @DiegoBeghin I would not know either if I didn’t read the odd Hugo novel for whatever reason.
Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023
@pony @Alon I remember when eternal dimwit Toby Young just learnt about the Vendée and wrote an article in Quillette about this HIDDEN TRUTH silenced by a CONSPIRACY OF HISTORIANS.
Show threadAlonAug 16, 2023
@DiegoBeghin @pony Has any of them discovered the Derg yet? Bonus points for the opportunity to slag on LiveAid...
Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023
@Alon @pony I can't meaningfully comment on the Derg due to my own ignorance, just that I'm annoyed how it's treated as just a context-free huminatarian disaster. ("Starving Ethiopians" was a meme among boomers)
Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023
@pony @Alon Anyway, I was *also* criticising the dimwit alt-leftists saying "violent revolution is always justified" who went somewhat viral here and in BlueSky, with this silly cartoon botching many important details (year of the French Rev is wrong, the Haitian Rev is Toussaint Louverture and Napoleon face to face but the year is 1791?).
Show threadyarrrivAug 17, 2023
@Alon @DiegoBeghin hasn't everybody listened to the Revolutions podcast at this point?
Show threadAlonAug 17, 2023
@yarrriv @DiegoBeghin I haven't!
Show threadyarrrivAug 17, 2023

@Alon @DiegoBeghin it's pretty big among a certain kind of nerd on this side of the ocean, and he's very detailed generally. The French revolution season is apparently 30-40 hours in total?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Duncan_(podcaster)#Revolutions

Mike Duncan (podcaster) - Wikipedia

Show threadDiegoAug 17, 2023
@yarrriv @Alon I did listen, the most interesting thing I learnt is that *everyone* smelled blood in the water when the Crown started going bankrupt. For example the petty nobility who likes to say no to everything thought that *this* was their moment to shine lol.
Show threadBirds or Trains?Aug 20, 2023
@Alon @DiegoBeghin @yarrriv the French (1789/1830/1848/1870), Haitian and Russian revolution seasons are really excellent.
Show thread🦕 Justus ☠️ Tóth 🏁 RömethAug 16, 2023

@DiegoBeghin These kind of analyses are super interesting.

We see the revolutions of 1848 as mainly having been failures, but they actually democratized huge parts of Central and Eastern Europe's populace, and further catalysed the democratization process in France, Benelux, and Scandinavia. (I wrote my BA thesis on this).

Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023

@Squig That makes you more of a specialist than me 😅

But yeah, it's interesting how many failures it takes until "we" get it right. Even the English who like to be smug about their political stability had a bunch of revolutions and civil wars in the 17th century. Didn't result in modern democracy because the material conditions weren't right, but they did limit the monarch's power, a pretty good system for their time.