MoxieAug 15, 2023
Nowhere Girl
The widespread assumption that trans gender identities are inherently sexual whereas cis identities are not, despite the fact trans identities tend to arise at the same childhood age and before any form of sexual interest or development occurs, is testament to cis-het people's insistence that theirs are the only "natural" identities and everybody else's are "fetishes," as well as their tendency to view gender in inherently sexual terms due to patriarchal programming.
Aug 14, 2023 at 6:22pmWeb
Show threadNowhere GirlAug 14, 2023

This is also why cis people tend to disbelieve in the existence of trans children: because they see trans identities as inherently sexual, they believe they must then be "imposed" on children.

The idea that trans kids have a gender identity as natural and real as a cis person's simply does not compute to people who have been conditioned to view everything about gender in sexualized terms.

Show threadNowhere GirlAug 14, 2023

It's frequently futile even having these conversations with cis people who haven't examined their assumptions because their status as "normal" is extremely important to them.

It's why even so-called allies become squeamish about gender affirming care for trans kids and will often couch their support for trans people in "live and let terms" for "consenting adults" only.

Because they think being trans is all about fucking.

Show threadNowhere GirlAug 14, 2023
Unfortunately, the cis queer community hasn't done a lot to help because of longstanding assimilationist based antagonism toward trans people (i.e., they think we make them look bad to cis-het people) and having the same cis hang-ups over gender "naturalness" while nonetheless reserving to themselves the right to alternate modes of gender expression because of their orientation, further muddying the distinction between gender and sexuality.
Show threadNowhere GirlAug 14, 2023

This is how you end up with cis TERF lesbians who insist everyone else but especially trans people should conform to their assigned gender or be punished while they, obviously, are allowed whatever form of presentation and gender expression they like.

"Forcing me to be feminine is patriarchal oppression but forcing other people to conform to patriarchal expectations is totally a-okay because I'm 'normal.'"

Show threadNowhere GirlAug 14, 2023

When I was in college, my encounters with the local queer community were defined by cis queers trying to suppress my gender in favor of their preferred modes of sexualized expression. Cis gay men in particular found it exasperating that I "acted" like a woman instead of being a proper twink for their amusement.

Ironically, cis-het people were far more supportive and had an easier time wrapping their heads around "she's just a girl who was born differently."

Show threadtessAug 14, 2023
Can I ask when u were in college? My experience, graduating this year is that most cis gays understand that I, as a trans woman, aren't a gay man, and thus am something completely different with no connection or effect on their lives. So I find that they're more confused when I express experiences they can relate to, or when I relate to things they describe.
Show threadNowhere GirlAug 14, 2023
@tess Oh, it was a long time ago in the 90s now but I've heard mix bag reports as to how much it has changed.
Show threadLennieAug 14, 2023
@gwynnion Ah! Trying to talk to a gay friend of mine about trans liberation and all he could do is talk about worrying about what genitals people had at gay bars. It didn't occur to him that someone might be in a gay bar because it was just a safe place. As a cis-het guy I didn't know how to call him out on his bullshit.
Show threadUrzlAug 27, 2023

@gwynnion I think a lot of people don't get past the coincidence of gender identity and sexual identity.

The consciousness of gender identity in interpersonal relationships tends to hit us in sort of the same wave of development as interpersonal sexual identity. Someone who's not intimately self-aware might not know or want to consider them separately.

We have a strange bias against knowing ourselves for such an individualistic culture.

Show threadMisuse CaseAug 14, 2023
@gwynnion I have a more concise and less charitable take on it, which is that a lot of my fellow cishet people have their minds in the gutter and they assume that everyone else does, too.
Show threadVioletAug 14, 2023

@gwynnion
It makes me wonder how many cis people secretly fetishize trans people while repressing their own self-doubt.

If their "forbidden" feelings are entirely sexual, they think everyone else's have to be.

Show threadVioletAug 14, 2023

@gwynnion
I feel like I should add, I speak from experience. I wasn't trans-reactionary* by any stretch, but it took a significant nudge to reveal how many of my... "interests" stemmed from a desire for something I thought I could never achieve for myself.

*Note: I don't like the term "transphobic" to describe those who are actively anti-trans. A phobia implies either a neurotic fear or a fear out of ignorance. That kind of transphobia can be reduced by education. Trans-reactionaryism is another story.

I don't mean to correct anyone's terminology, especially as the new girl on the block, but precise communication has always been a personal goal.

Show threadIt's Just Jenn 🏳️‍⚧️Aug 14, 2023

@violet

I've recently leared the term trans-misia. That might better fit what you're going for.

@gwynnion

Show threadSeanAug 14, 2023
@gwynnion This explains so much and I can't believe I never figured this out.
Show threadJennifer Kayla | Theogrin 🦊Aug 16, 2023

@gwynnion

This is one more reason why I consider the genuinely fetishistic worship of 'normality' to be not just troubling but actively harmful.

Once you begin to think that there's only one way to be, every variance, every difference becomes equal, and in most cases gets framed as sexual. (Which speaks ever so highly of our society's deranged views on sexuality, huh?)

And it's far from just us! How often in the past were the eminently fictional proclivities of BIPOC folks used in the past to justify rage and murder, with broadsheets reporting on roving gangs? (How common, today...?) Or neurodivergence portrayed as a continual threat, typically with sexual fears as a side note?

Yes, so much of this is due to society's horrific conflation of sex, sexuality and gender. But... when the hatemongers know what they're doing, this also feels like one more verse in a songbook which has never failed to inspire.

Show threadxianAug 18, 2023
@gwynnion This seems congruent with the attitude seen in some macho, rural, southeastern U.S. etc. subsocieties where male homosexual behavior ("on the side" or "on the downlow") is framed as a vice akin to alcoholism or gambling, but the idea of "coming out" to these closeted bisexual men, let alone expressing "pride" in their nature may seem as impossible in their world as delcaring "drunk pride" or "prostitution pride"
Show threadxianAug 18, 2023
@gwynnion I guess I'm saying when any variation from the perceived dominant norm is introduced by one's society as a peccadillo that some may be indulged in, privately or secretly, and in shame, then discovering for some that way of living is their norm may be difficult to comprehend, at least at first.
Show threadxianAug 18, 2023
@gwynnion This keeps coming out sounding to me as if I am trying to excuse bigotry and hatred. I hope not! I am picking up a pattern though and a root cause and wondering if there are ways to work on that level, too.
Show threadMonica RooneyAug 18, 2023
@gwynnion this! My kid (non-binary) has a friend who wasn’t allowed to come to their birthday party because the parents didn’t agree with the lifestyle. What kind of a lifestyle does a nine year old have?
Show threadReallyCanadianFlyAug 18, 2023
@gwynnion even as a cishet male I've found the pressure to be "normal" quite intense. I can't imagine what trans people have to go through. 😬 Hugs!
Show threadMeguey-shaped bundle of bitsOct 22, 2023
@gwynnion As a cis-pan woman, this is a “yes, and”, because the patriarchal programming views / everyone/ as inherently sexual from a young age, regardless of gender, expression, or orientation. Control of sexual identity & activity is at the heart of patriarchy, in service of capitalism. That trans identity is fetishized is 100% true, but the assumption that AFAB people are inherently sexual, & further, inherently sexually receptive, underlies dress codes in elementary schools.