Doctor M. Popular

Have you ever noticed that most self-driving cars don't have any passengers?

"Deadheading" is an industry term for keeping driverless cars in constant motion, even when they have neither a passenger nor a destination. Waymo & Cruise rely on deadheading to avoid paying for parking.

Why pay the city for public parking when you can store your car on the road for free (as long as it's moving)?

Since I've started keeping track, I've noticed that over 90% of the self-driving cars I see are empty...

Aug 8, 2023 at 2:26amWeb
Show threadDoctor M. PopularAug 8, 2023

Tonight I spent one hour at the corner of Cesar Chavez & Guerrero St counting driverless cars.

Between 5-6pm, I counted 27 driverless cars, but only 1 appeared to have a passenger.

During rush hour in #SanFrancisco, 96% of the Waymos, Cruises, and Xoops on this busy street were empty!

edit: driverless cars can operate 24/7 in SF, but I've been informed that some are only taking passengers during certain hours (ie 9pm-5am). So the cars I saw today were probably not accepting any paid rides.

Show threadLaurie VossAug 8, 2023
@docpop I thought they weren't allowed to have passengers during the daytime?
Show threadDoctor M. PopularAug 8, 2023
@seldo that could be true. I can’t say, but some do appear to humans in the back I assumed they were passengers, but I don’t know. I’d like to be corrected if that’s the case.
Show threaddavewongilliesAug 8, 2023
@docpop @seldo Yeah, most regular people can only (after signing up on a waitlist) use them from 9pm to 5am (I just got approved or whatever for that recently). There's a small number of testers who can use them outside of those hours.
Show threadDoctor M. PopularAug 8, 2023
@davewongillies @seldo thanks for that info. I’ve been looking for more information on this, but I’m struggling to find the hard details online. I found an article from last month saying the cars can be used as taxis 24/7, but I’m struggling to find the public information for which services are allowed to charge for rides and during what times.
Show threaddavewongilliesAug 8, 2023
@docpop @seldo A friend of mine is part of their testing program. He said that while Cruise does have the approval to run 24x7 for reasons he's not privy to they're not actually doing that yet
Show threadMarcel WaldvogelAug 8, 2023

@docpop A first order estimate of the number of cars going to pick up people is the number of cars with passengers.

But even doubling the number of passenger-initiated relocations would still keep "productive" moves below 10%.

Of course, there are other reasons to continue driving besides the parking fees: 1. Acquiring more training data; 2. improving the statistics: Distance driven, distance without accident, …
But there should be disincentives of clogging the streets during rush hour.

Show threadAriaflameAug 8, 2023
@marcel @docpop are they EVs? How much are they contributing to pollution and climate change if they're continually moving?
Show threadsanae   (SF)Aug 8, 2023
@docpop we don't even need humans
Show threadRyan SingelAug 8, 2023

@docpop

@scott

What are the robots up to?

Show threaddango🍡Aug 8, 2023
@docpop I haven't seen a single driverless car with any passengers, I didn't even realize they took passengers...
Show threadEniaAug 8, 2023

@docpop Cruise is only available to the general public 10 pm - 5 am. employees and friends and family can ride outside those hours but the map is still restricted so it’s not the whole city. Also not every car is assigned to being part of the taxi fleet. Some are still mapping and testing.

Waymo is still in beta. Last I heard 80,000 on the waitlist.

Show threadDoctor M. PopularAug 8, 2023
@eniatitova thanks! I've updated my post to include that info.
Show threadMonikaAug 8, 2023
@docpop but they have to pay for fuel and wear out their parts, so why would that be a saving?
Show threadKriszta SatoriAug 8, 2023
@docpop hello there, is there a chance you could talk to us about this 'deadheading' phenomenon on the #BBCWorldService radio, please?
Show threadcharli (they)Aug 8, 2023
@docpop what an alarmingly apropos metaphor for capitalism as a whole
Show threadgrouchoxAug 8, 2023
@docpop this will kill cities. Drivers will start wrecking these just for jamming up traffic even more.
Show threadjwzAug 8, 2023
@docpop You know what's the most surprising thing? That these cars don't have giant bright-as-the-sun billboards on top of them. Only a matter of time, I guess.
Show threadZakyfarmsAug 8, 2023
@docpop I thought they were still awaiting approval to take passengers on the fully driverless cars en masse? Aren’t these still participating in the trial program?
Show threadAndy ReitzAug 8, 2023
@zakyfarms @docpop this is my understanding as well.
Show threadgene xAug 8, 2023
@areitz @zakyfarms @docpop I know for cruise it’s like after 9pm or so when they can take passengers
Show threadDoctor M. PopularAug 8, 2023
@genex @areitz @zakyfarms if anyone has definitive info, I’d love to hear it or better yet see it documented somewhere. It’s very likely I just waisted an hour counting cars for no reason, but I’d want to see more details before I delete that post.
Also, hi Gene! I love your photo projects.
Show threaddavewongilliesAug 8, 2023
@docpop @genex @areitz @zakyfarms https://getcruise.com/support/how-to-ride/
How to Ride Frequently Asked Questions

Get answers to commonly asked questions and learn how to take a ride in a Cruise self-driving car

Show threaddavewongilliesAug 8, 2023
@docpop @genex @areitz @zakyfarms Although right now when I open the app
Show threadgene xAug 8, 2023
@docpop @areitz @zakyfarms thanks so much!!! I feel like we should’ve met by now (we’re both friends w/Eddie at Secret Alley). But here’s what Cruise says for SF:
Show threadS Vermin RoseAug 9, 2023
@docpop I don't grasp the economics of keeping cars in motion to avoid parking fees. My picture of things is that operating a vehicle costs at least $.50/mile just in capital costs. Averaging 10mph, that's $5/hour. So I suspect that something else is in play, such as data-gathering.
Show threadChip UnicornAug 8, 2023

@docpop
Is it cheaper to keep a car always moving than it is to park it?

That's... shocking.

Show threadJoeAug 8, 2023
@Chip_Unicorn @docpop Parking garages don't allow in and out. So the robotaxi fleets would have to buy or rent their own lots. Also SF has more cars than legal places to park them.
Show threadKyrre SjøbækAug 8, 2023
@not2b
Sounds like they need to buy or rent some spaces then. And it also seems like driving around is too cheap.
@Chip_Unicorn @docpop
Show threadslyborgAug 8, 2023
@docpop @jwz Municipalities can easily solve this by imposing a tax on empty vehicles operating on the public right of way.
Show threadjwzAug 8, 2023
@slyborg @docpop Municipalities can easily solve all of the problems with these things in any number of ways, but so far have shown no willingness to do so.
Show threadslyborgAug 8, 2023
@jwz @docpop I really meant ‘should’ solve, and you’re right.
Show threadKyrre SjøbækAug 8, 2023

@slyborg
Or just on all vehicles.

@docpop @jwz

Show threadOzzie D, NP-hard  Aug 8, 2023
@docpop reading and watching this, I can't help but see these empty SDVs as inflammatory mediators coursing through arteries, triggering clots and chronic dysfunction.
Show threadBill Plein🌶Aug 8, 2023

@docpop @jwz Driverless cars add to congestion.

Driver owned (and parked) cars use up valuable space in cities that could be used for business or housing.

The answer isn’t driverless cars. It’s mass transportation.

Show threadRyan The Red 🖥️🚲🍺🏳️‍🌈Aug 8, 2023
@bplein @docpop @jwz How many times are techbros going to reinvent cars to replace the vastly more efficient railcars/trains that we already had and the auto industry destroyed before we can get governments to just fund them again already?
Show threadAngieAug 8, 2023
@bplein @docpop @jwz Mass transportation isn't the answer for all when they don't allow people to travel with their pets.
Show threadBill Plein🌶Aug 8, 2023

@ang6666 @docpop @jwz

Use your car then.

I didn't claim we need to eliminate cars. It's OK to have a mix, but our current mix (especially in most of the US) isn't ideal.

Show threadPamela EhnAug 10, 2023
@ang6666 @bplein @docpop @jwz I’ve never had trouble traveling with my pet on mass transit. But then he’s a small cat in a carrier. Buses, subways, no problem. I’ve had more trouble taking Uber with my cat than I’ve had with mass transit. But this is NY. Do they actually prohibit that in CA? It seems to me that could be a violation of the ADA given how many disabled people have service animals.
Show threadAngieAug 10, 2023
@cadenza @bplein @docpop @jwz I am not disabled. And I have two huskies. Not small dogs. They say small dogs in carriers are allowed, so not something that I can do with mine.
Show threadJennifer DeseoAug 8, 2023
@bplein @docpop @jwz Preferably mass transit that runs on electricity from renewable sources, please and thank you.
Show threadBill Plein🌶Aug 8, 2023
@jdeseo @docpop @jwz Green transit is preferred. Mass transit is preferred. Both together are the most preferred.
Show threadMarkus PeuhkuriAug 8, 2023
@docpop Years ago (when self/remote-driving was a distant dream) I made some calculations and even then it was cheaper to have car moving (even accounting wear, not only gas) than paying for parking.
Would congestion fee solve it?
Show threadBen StokmanAug 8, 2023
@docpop there’s no way the mileage costs less than parking. Even if it was $20 an hour. Parking cost cant be the only driver, maybe they use it for more data too?
Show threadAndrew DouglassAug 8, 2023

@benjistokman @docpop the IRS mileage rate is around $0.65 per mile I think. That’s supposed to cover cost of operation and maintenance. Driving on city streets in SF, these cars can probably manage to average 10mph or less.

Let’s assume each one of these cars gets hailed once an hour and can find parking for the rest of the hour. Parking would have to be closer to $6.50 an hour or less for parking to be cheaper than driving.

Factor in the bonus data gathering opportunity, and it makes sense.

Show threadBen StokmanAug 8, 2023
@ardouglass @docpop would it actually be 10 miles an hour?
Show threadAndrew DouglassAug 8, 2023
@benjistokman @docpop it could be less if they intentionally hit every red light and traffic spot they can.
Show threadOpenDNA⚙️Aug 8, 2023

@benjistokman @docpop Spot prices for parking in San Francisco normally run $20-40/hr.

You can get under that by pre-booking or buying monthly passes, buy they aren't going to "waste capital" doing that.

Show thread4d3fectAug 8, 2023
@docpop Why haven't these guys burned through their cash yet?
Show threadMatt PalmerAug 8, 2023
@4d3fect @docpop because they have a *lot* of money.
Show threadEinfach Nein Aug 8, 2023

@docpop

Not sure if this sounds like bicycle paradise in the making: Given what a law abiding car in Germany does to the usual road rage style of human drivers, they could indeed tame the traffic just by congesting the fighting cage that is called street.

Show threadTarren (They/Them)Aug 8, 2023
@lisamelton @docpop But doesn't that kinda waste energy though? So they'd end up having to pay for the energy to keep the deadheading thing going?
Show threadNic Duquette Aug 8, 2023
@docpop Next step is autonomous sleeper cars that roll quietly through the streets all night, people asleep inside, in cities that won’t build housing
Show threadDave Parry Aug 8, 2023
@docpop are we certain this is the most efficient way of organising society?
Show threadFergal HanleyAug 8, 2023
@docpop if cities are serious about improving public transport availability and/or reducing the overall number of cars on the road then they should be subsidising parking bays for companies like these (car share services included).
Show threadPhil LandmeierAug 8, 2023
@docpop I'll be dead before I see a self-driving car here in West Virginia. There are still no EVs here except for a Rivian pickup I saw a couple months ago.
Show threadRobert BanzAug 8, 2023
@docpop The driverless car companies will be able to inflate the adoption rate of driverless by not leaving any room on the road for cars with drivers. Genius!
Show threadMarud Aug 8, 2023
@docpop
What a waste of energy ​​
@framasky
Show threadPetr FerschmannAug 8, 2023

@docpop if it is Taxi, then up to 50% of empty car can be quite normal (picking up passengers) and then returning.

It will be less only in city centers.