Mastodawn

herriott101 Aug 6, 2023

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen

During my one year activity on the #Fediverse I've now seen at least four instance admins quitting from being an admin or shutting down their server. Half of these cases were admins being dickheads and the rest of them were mostly about users being dickheads leading admin getting burned out.

Both outcomes are unfortunate, but the latter makes me sad. Why do we have to harass and doxx an admin here for such pseudetical reasons like extensive open text search feature? I don't get humans sometimes.

I repeat: We are not free from toxicity on the Fediverse. Be kind. Make a chance.

#MastoAdmin #Fediverse #SocialMedia

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

Btw, I've gotten really harsh criticism for just saying "Be kind"... that won't stop me from saying it. We can always be kind and I can say "be kind" out of kindness. Encouraging to kindness is not rudeness and I can't wrap my head around it why would it be anything else than focusing on the positive side of things.

There are always people who focus on negativity, pessimism and hate. Whatever hits me, I choose to smile. #Positivity #Kindness #Attitude

lashman Aug 5, 2023

emurphy42 Aug 5, 2023

@lashman @rolle Dude, you're like /old/.

lashman Aug 5, 2023

@emurphy42 @rolle i know

Ann,Molly a cat and Hugo a pug Aug 5, 2023

@rolle Can't believe that anyone could object to that. Always keep doing what you're doing

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

Janne Kiviluoto Aug 5, 2023

@rolle out of curiosity, what's been the argument for saying "be kind" to be rude?

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@janne There was a better term for it I can't recall correctly, but it is something to do with the notion that you can't tell others what to do or it's considered as condescending, making you look a better person etc... I wish I'd remember that conversation better so I could look for it.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@janne Oh yes got it now:

Terms:
- Tone policing
- Toxic positivity

The argument also focuses on entitlement. Like if you are not part of the harassed minority, you can't say "be kind" as it's understood as "don't be angry about the things you have suffered from" etc.

Janne Kiviluoto Aug 5, 2023

@rolle I would understand (and agree with) this if there would be context, ie. "be kind" would be a patronizing reply to someone.

Generic "be kind" is hard to find tone policing or toxic positivity in my opinion. But then again, I honestly think kindness is our superpower...

Allan Chow Aug 5, 2023

@rolle Im assuming people have had to deal with people pulling dick moves but are always saying kind positive words while doing it.

🏴 Lispegistus 🧠➕🖥️Aug 5, 2023

@grumpasaurus @rolle Tone policing when you are justified in being angry is a common abuse tactic. There's also a term called "toxic positivity" when insistence on positive thinking is used as a way to dismiss peoples negative experiences or shut conversations down. Rudeness and anger are part of the spectrum of human expression and there are numerous contexts where they are more than appropriate and kindness is absolutely not.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@lispegistus @grumpasaurus Those were the terms I was looking for, tone policing and toxic positivity. Thanks.

Océane Aug 5, 2023

@rolle Yes, it happens with abuse survivors…

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@oceane Sure. I'm an abuse survivor. Encouraging to kindness is not downplaying experiences.

I like what Eddie Jaku, a holocaust survivor said in his book:

“I do not hate anyone, not even Hitler. Hate is a disease which may destroy your enemy but will destroy you in the process. You may not like everyone, but that doesn’t give you the right to be nasty to them. I don’t love everyone but I hate no one. There is no revenge; staying alive is the only revenge."

Agree 100%.

Océane Aug 5, 2023

@rolle So, I'm an abuse survivor too! And I also think that what we call “bullying” is abuse, 100% of the time. The abuse survivors I'm talking about are also abusing people, especially infrastructure maintainers.

1. The problem here is of course the Reddit migration in which Facebook has contacted major infrastructure maintainers to have private meetings under NDAs. I have a French-speaking draft somewhere on my computer…
2. These people are targeting infrastructure maintainers because, of course, they concentrate too much power. Which is of course why Facebook has contacted them, to (1) get a grip on the Fediverse, and (2) put them under pressure. They know we would abuse them because that's how Facebook works, they even have tons of data and they can conduct research on unconsenting users if they need to.
3. This isn't an excuse but having unfortunately to hear the French political discourse on “online hate” I know that focusing on individuals won't solve anything (and isn't meant to). We could and I think should focus on why these people are still abusive after years of presence on the Fediverse: I know that Twitter is abusive, I've made a relatively popular blog post about it (it has about half the views of my entire blog, so that's “relatively” in its literal meaning). I think that Mastodon, as a Twitter clone, also does abuse its users (as does the software that I'm using right now, Firefish) and that we should focus on how this software is still abusing people. IMO, it's because Twitter only fitted to a fraction of the population use cases' – it wasn't usable by most of us but still had to to stay economically relevant. So the entire Twitter experience is very different according to who uses it, what are their professions and relationships to people and institutions. The people who are basically manipulated to use it but shouldn't are scammed, on the long term, through institutions – which is abuse. And Mastodon absolutely takes on being a Twitter clone and absolutely can't help itself from abusing people as a Twitter clone.

The internet doesn't have to suck, it's only a matter of platforms. I don't really wonder why…

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@oceane I don't fully agree on the "Mastodon is a Twitter clone" part though.

Océane Aug 5, 2023

@rolle Mastodon, like Twitter,

(1) makes access to information rather scarce, leaving us at waiting for information to fall into our timelines, and putting us in concurrence for our neighbors' attention, which is useful to Twitter, in various ways,
(2) broadly speaking, only provides affordances to be to rich people. Teenagers with a low cultural capital, including mentally disabled ones, only have affordances to seem (cf. Debord, 1970). For example, a biography is pretty different according to your own symbolic capital (your personal projects, or whatever you've founded come as examples among others). What can you put in your biography when you're just a blue collar worker who doesn't compete for economic/cultural/social/symbolic capital in any field (Bourdieu, 1984)?

Bourdieu, Pierre: “Distinction”, 1984
Debord, Guy: “The Society of the Spectacle”, 1970

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@oceane Ok now I have no idea what you're talking about.

Troed Sångberg Aug 5, 2023

@rolle Rule #1 on ioc.exchange (I'm on the moderator team) is "Be nice!"

We message users reminding them of this rule when needed. One (1) time I've had a rude reply and had to suspend the user.

Working as intended.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@troed My number one is similar. #MementoMoriSocial

Hugh Young-Bish Aug 5, 2023

@rolle
You should have been in Aotearoa New Zealand in 2020-22. "Be kind" was Jacinda Ardern's mantra to get us through the lockdowns, and we haven't forgotten it.

Maschinenraum Aug 5, 2023

@rolle I have an easy answer for *potential* dickhead users: You're free to dislike and are free to move on in case you don't like it...

Michael Aug 5, 2023

@rolle could t agree more!

CartyBoston Aug 5, 2023

@rolle it can be situational no?

If some (to use an American example) MAGA nazi engages me it's unwelcome.

"Kind" - and maybe there are language issues here to explore - can imply acceptance.

One can be aloof and still not unkind, I suppose I strive for that.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@CartyBoston But you always have a choice.

Ben Ptacek Aug 5, 2023

@rolle I am a sysadmin too, but there is a reason I choose to NOT run my own #mastodon instance vs join (and pay). I see too often where people think smaller instances equal better quality on here. There is the "hit by a bus" risk of solo host. Those don't have a great support staff so you rely on the "I am human" approach. In terms of "service", this is not a good enough reason in my opinion, for a solo instance. You want to run an instance? Cool. But adding users? You become a service.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@bennysp For me it's not that black and white. I also run other servers. I also provide them for my customers.

You can read about my server in the About section: https://mementomori.social/about

Memento mori

Mementomori.social is a social media for mortals. We connect with the Fediverse, used by millions. This instance is backed by a Finnish company, digital web agency Digitoimisto Dude Oy.

Mastodon hosted on mementomori.social

Ben Ptacek Aug 5, 2023

@rolle I looked it over, but my points are still relevant. "Servers" are a service when there are users present and running an instance solo, is not a good practice for a service. I am not saying to not run servers/instances, I am just saying to not run them solo OR invest/join hosting other instances, in general.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@bennysp Servers are a service. But why should it change anything? I take comfort in the fact my company is financially backing this instance. We are a team of 11 people. They don't currently take part in any other way than to be there.

It's not the best practice, but it can work when you have a passionate and committed person as admin. I even know a single person hosting companies who have been fine for decades. In the overall picture it is not very wise, but it can work if the contingency plan is in place.

We have a two person system administration in our company and large corporates trust with us their servers. We do have a team working for us in the data center though, but only two people are the main responsible ones. It's been all fine for 10 years now.

Ben Ptacek Aug 5, 2023

@rolle Two people are better than one, so that is good, of course.

Sysadmins know all about how well single points of failure work in the long run and it is no different with the human resource aspect too. I am not talking about finances, scale or passion here. I am talking about when life happens and there is no human backup that has SOP and is ingrained in the setup/support actively.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@bennysp There are always options. Most of the things can be automated. Servers are usually running without a human. I don't take that gloomy approach. If I was to die, there is not much I can do about it.

katzenberger Aug 5, 2023

@rolle A bit of expectation management can't hurt and might reduce the dependency on (not: necessity of) voluntary kindness.

Before joining an instance, I'd like to know what the admins and mods are standing for, and they'd probably like it if people signed up only after they've read the About page, at least.

House rules matter way more on the #fediverse than elsewhere. They should neither be copy-pasted, nor be considered optional, because neither side really cared.

Medea Vanamonde🏳️‍⚧️ ♀Aug 5, 2023

@rolle you have “sysop” in your Bio
!NICE!

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@MishaVanMollusq Indeed. Thanks.

Arotrios Aug 5, 2023

@rolle My recommendation to admins is that no matter what, don't make it a one person show, even if you have to create sockpuppet moderator accounts to give the appearance of a team enforcing the rules.

Bullies target individuals. They rarely go after groups. Having a team that you're part of not only gives your actions greater authority, but also provides you personal plausible deniability for unpopular decisions. Ideally, communication to your users should be done by the voice of the moderation team, not the admin account. Keep the community management as separate as possible from the technical workings of the site, and keep your interaction with users through the admin account to a minimum.

Context: ran a non-profit publishing website with a public forum for 12 years before burnout caught up. I would have only lasted one if it weren't for the excellence of our moderation team and their ability to help mitigate the toxicity and spam.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@Arotrios For now I'm alone. I'm a hermit. Will take it to future consideration to bring in someone else. But I'm not very social IRL and it's hard to find people who to trust 100%. We'll see what happens.

For the time being I have no stress about this and nothing is really bothering me. All peachy.

Arotrios Aug 5, 2023

@rolle glad to hear it. You'll probably be fine if you've got less than 1k actively posting users. This would probably be a good time to start identifying those users you have that would make good community managers, so that if your instance does scale unexpectedly, you have some backup help in the works.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 5, 2023

@Arotrios There are 116 active users right now. I am single handledly reviewing and accepting each user who want to register as I require a reason for signing up. One reason for this is indeed to prevent my instance having any unexpected influx of users, other is to "know" my users. Rest of the reasons here: https://mementomori.social/@rolle/110832413994848333

Roni Laukkarinen (@[email protected])

@[email protected] Hi there. There are a couple of reasons for this: - I like the sense of control - I want to "know" the users who sign up here - This way I'm more sure they accept the rules - I can control the resources of the server better when I know the user number in real time - I don't want it to grow too fast or too big - It feels nice to welcome each and everyone myself, it's something that I like to do - This way I can help the users better right from the start while welcoming them here, for example if people join from X/Twitter etc. - To manage spam/scam profiles - When the userbase is sound, I don't have to look for moderators any time soon These are the main points. #MementoMoriSocial

Memento mori

Jon Aug 5, 2023

@rolle Universeodon's instance admin is the most recent example of somebody stepping down. Do you see that as an "unfortunate outcome"? If so, do you think it's an example of an admin being a dickhead, or users being dickheads?

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 6, 2023

@jdp23 By unfortunate outcome I referred to this recent case of a Finnish admin who attacked his users after being sexist and ableist and then decided "Mastodon is dead to me" and informed to shut everything down without a warning as a revenge. There are similar cases of admins like this...

The latter one is different, it's about users targeting admins. I followed that carnage from the shadows. We have similar interests with supernovae, we have exchanged messages on GitHub, been a big help for me. In that particular case it's the users being dickheads.

Jon Aug 6, 2023

@rolle that first case sounds really unfortunate. With Universeodon, though, we see it differently. Byron may have been helpful to you, but he was harassing others.

Roni Rolle Laukkarinen Aug 6, 2023

@jdp23 Ok, I don't know the whole picture then.

Jon Aug 6, 2023

@rolle ah okay. Yes, it's very easy to just get a partial picture in situations like this ... here's a couple blog posts with the other side.

-- Oliphant's at https://writer.oliphant.social/oliphant/defederating-universeodon has some good perspectives

-- .art's at https://dotart.blog/welshpixie/the-toxic-manosphere-of-fedi

That's pretty much how it looks to me at well as well.

But I don't mean to undercut your point, users being dicks certainly contributes to administrator burnout. On larger instances, especially instances with open registrations, It's stressful even in the best of times. And federation means users on other instances can hassle you as well.

Defederating Universeodon

See the update at the bottom, as we have rescinded the suspension against Universeodon in a good-faith effort to reset relations. Olip...

The Oliphant

Karl Katzke Aug 5, 2023

@rolle agreed. Two of the admins who have burnt out after being harassed were from my professional community. They are good people who wanted to use our profession to host a positive community. What did they get? Death threats, swattings, their families and children were harassed and threatened, and the people who did or even enabled the harassing have faced no consequences.

eyajpng Aug 6, 2023

@rolle Nobody deserves harassment or doxxing but the “open text search” guy fell squarely into the first category of admins being dickheads. The conflict that culminated in his departure from the fediverse was kicked off by his persistent harassment of another admin, as well as anyone he discovered talking about him unfavorably (which he tracked down using his non-consensual full text search tool).

Truly appalling behavior from an instance admin tbh.

I really don't get why people do that to each other, it's a volunteer service. Admins are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts & on their spare time.

We as the userbase should be kind to one another & thank the team that runs your instance.

If you want something or report an issue, do so politely, it will be fixed, you won't die if it's dead. Shit happens.

As for the full text search issue, if your instance doesn't have it, move to another one that does, don't threaten ppl.