Space CowboyJul 29, 2023
Dan Gillmor

I hope that Mastodon folks who like to scold newcomers will realize how off-putting -- and damaging -- that behavior is.

Please be helpful, not scornful. Let's reduce the genuine risk of poisoning fediverse growth, and thereby giving social-media oligarchs indefinite control over online discourse.

Having said that, Mastodon/fediverse could/should do more to make users' experiences more gratifying.

Read this essential post from @kissane to understand more. https://erinkissane.com/mastodon-is-easy-and-fun-except-when-it-isnt

Jul 29, 2023 at 5:42pmWeb
Show threadAlex WhiteJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane agreed. That kind of gatekeeping behaviour isnโ€™t good for anyone
Show threadhapbtJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane dude have you used Twitter
Show threaddoctorambientJul 30, 2023

@hapbt @dangillmor @kissane Obviously I'm not who you directed this at, but I was on Twitter from 2009 until last year.

The stuff in the link is all true and all so bad that I know **many** people who both hate Twitter/X and also feel stuck there because of just these issues. So I am not sure what your point is?

Twitter can suck and Mastodon as a system/community can have problems at the same time.

Show threadstevenJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane Don't scold individuals. Teach the whole community. Show best practices for all. Lead by example.

Admit when something is your preference and not an accepted practice.

And you can always choose who's in your feed and block whomever you wish.
Show threadChirag SharmaJul 29, 2023
@steven this won't teach people it starts with spending time with them giving them some vision of what a good practice is, they too often do away with saying a one or two liner posts ranting about it being a good guy
Show threadhapbtJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane letโ€™s stop tone policing introverts who are not interested in socializing with strangers
Show threadChristine SykesJul 29, 2023
@hapbt @dangillmor @kissane Thanks for this! I'm mostly a weekend poster, and sometimes I feel like I don't post enough, and that that's a negative somehow.
Show threadflere-imsaho ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ฆJul 30, 2023

@hapbt is this why you're actively looking for people to school when they specifically ask that you don't?

it's not the first time i see you deliberately target posts asking to not engage in the type of harassment that you clearly enjoy.

@dangillmor @kissane

Show threadAmyJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane what are they scolding about?
Show threadJoe โŒ๐Ÿ‘‘Jul 29, 2023
@Qacdefeej @dangillmor @kissane Endless variants on "you aren't doing Mastodon right". You boosted a cool post that had no alt text in the image. You mentioned politics and didn't add a CW. You favorited when you should have boosted. You said Mastodon instead of "the fediverse". You mentioned racism but some Europeans insist that racism is solely an American problem (ignore our fascist parties), so CW with USPOL. You described the issues you face as a woman or a trans person but I, a cis white man, insist that you explain in detail to me why you said what you said because I don't believe you. And on and on. Now, I have been on Mastodon long enough to know that people who engage in that kind of thing should just be ignored or blocked, but newbies may just conclude that this isn't the place for them.
Show threadSeverine LovegoodJul 30, 2023
@not2b @Qacdefeej @dangillmor @kissane this is a very helpful reminder. Mute / block sounds like common sense and yet itโ€™s not reflex. Itโ€™s meant to be an empowering tool but for some it can be worrisome.
Show threadSan WuJul 30, 2023
@not2b @Qacdefeej @dangillmor @kissane
These tone policing idiots are probably blocked by many people. Mastodon should implement a feature where people who are blocked by many people are blocked from being seen by new users for 3 months.
Show threadCenobyte Jul 30, 2023
@Qacdefeej @kissane @dangillmor I havenโ€™t personally had it happen but Iโ€™ve had people scolded and rather rudely (on my instance) about alt text. Iโ€™ve heard of content warnings being an issue but none of the folks on my instance have had that.
Show threadEvgeny LepekhinJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane as many came from #twitter which very famous for being a toxic place, it's no surprise people took their old habits with them. Also when it comes to discussing politics here, #mastodon reminds me of twitter very much.
Show threadChristine SykesJul 29, 2023
@evgenylepekhin @dangillmor @kissane I get what you mean. I'm trying to find the right balance of politics on my feed without feeling the Twitter-like levels of negativity. I want to be able to have/see political discussion/info here without the knee-jerk toxicity and hate.
Show threaddoctorambientJul 30, 2023

@evgenylepekhin I find this comment fascinating and counter to my experience. (Definitely not saying that you are wrong, just curious why our experiences differ.)

I have a lot of political interactions here and they have been almost exclusively civil and friendly. The exact opposite of Twitter where it was all people scoring points of perceived enemies. And insane levels of anger...I can't be on, er, X for 5 minutes without getting mad. Very different here, for me anyway.

@dangillmor @kissane

Show threadEvgeny LepekhinJul 30, 2023

@doctorambient there are definitely less livid comments and replies on #mastodon than on #twitter, way less.

But it all depends on what topic you're discussing, what's your position, and what flag is over your dome.

You won't get a lot of hatred unless you proclaim an opinion different from an official "party line".

@dangillmor @kissane

Show threadEvgeny LepekhinJul 30, 2023

@doctorambient here's an example to paint a picture.

If I say something about war in Ukraine or LGBT+ that doesn't coincide with statements of Western society, I'll be labeled as a fascist before you can count to three. Been there.

When it comes to a sensitive topic like this people are not ready to listen and articulate. They use cliches from the media, 'cause it's easier.

Usually people who do that have a line "freedom of speech" on their profile. Hypocrisy.

@dangillmor @kissane

Show threaddoctorambientJul 31, 2023

@evgenylepekhin

You mention cliches which always reminds me that "slogans are machines for stopping thought." Which is, it seems, a sort of counter-slogan.

@dangillmor @kissane

Show threadJรผrgen HubertJul 31, 2023

@doctorambient @evgenylepekhin @dangillmor @kissane

The #Fediverse is still overwhelmingly white European/north American in character, which shows up frequently.

Sometimes bad, wrong takes might be well-meaning due to ignorance, but too often they are _not_ well-meaning. Either way, we need a lot more diversity around here for the Fediverse to truly thrive.

Show threaddoctorambientJul 31, 2023
@juergen_hubert Totally agree with that!
Show threadDefend Democracy ๐Ÿฆ‹๐ŸŒŠJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane
They really need to get a handle on that. Off putting to say the least. Mastodon has become known as nerd social because of them
Show threadDefend Democracy ๐Ÿฆ‹๐ŸŒŠJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane
I would go as far as saying Mastodon missed the boat because of the fediverse evangelists wagging their fingers at everyone. It's created a nerd stigma which won't go away. The image has stuck. Funny how easily a bunch of losers can screw something up completely
Show thread๐•ฎ๐–๐–Š๐–—๐–™๐–”๐–Œ๐–—๐–†๐–‰Jul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane I second this.
Not only when it comes to Mastodon but in general.

Elitism and perfectionism is never a good approach to things.
If people are basically taking their first babysteps, you'll just scare the fish away... And it's a completely natural reaction if you're getting hit by a ruler right in the fingers during class...

Show threadMans RJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane Haha, they'll just try to gaslight you into thinking you're the bad guy.
Show threadedgeoforever ๐ŸŽJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane when a large group of people are arriving in another culture, clashes are natural. Being an actual immigrant to US myself, I had a mini deja vu. Like the first time, I chose to enjoy the warm welcomes rather than dwell on the off putting.Also, I am nice to newcomers. Ex twitter is both a nasty place and a home for large groups of people. It explains everything.
Show threadAndy McKayJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane

"About half of the people whose primary or secondary reasons fit into this category talked about content warnings, and most of those responses pointed to what they perceived as unreasonableโ€”or in several cases anti-trans or racistโ€”expectations for content warnings."

"Others said that their fear of unintentionally breaking CW expectations or other unwritten rules of fedi made them too anxious to post, or made posting feel like work."

Show threadAndy McKayJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane That has certainly been my experience, along with scolding by white knights for not using image descriptions which made me want to use them even less. I post images a lot and having to describe every one in detail is tiresome.

I'm staying because I like the decentralised, open-source aspect, but I'm posting on my terms. I figure we are all adults so people are welcome to block me if they need/want to. I certainly do with other people.

Show threadBlack Chic with the Red TruckJul 29, 2023
@KorimakoEcology @dangillmor @kissane
Still seems like a strange logic to say, โ€œoh these requests for cw or alttext are a lot, so I will just go back to the blatantly abusive dumpster fire I came from or maybe choose another equally offensive dumpster fireโ€ฆโ€
Like- okโ€ฆ ๐Ÿค”
Personally it only took me a little bit of lurking before I felt comfortable and understood the culture well enough to start posting and Iโ€™m assuming it would be that way on any other platform. ๐Ÿคท๐Ÿพโ€โ™€๏ธ
But yes- people should post as they want and let the chips fall where they may- as they do everywhere else.
Show threadAndy McKayJul 30, 2023

@ReneeWestberry @dangillmor @kissane Except it just means I have posted here less, I haven't posted anything to Twitter since I left or tried Bluesky or Threads.

I very occasionally cross-post stuff to Instagram and it is a significantly more straight forward experience.

Show threadBlack Chic with the Red TruckJul 30, 2023
@KorimakoEcology
I mean yeah of course it is. And if thatโ€™s your priority then thatโ€™s what you should do. Easy posting and they steal all your shit and unload a shit load of adds and bots into your timeline.
I just got tired of all that and them deciding for me what I get to see- what news they think is relevant etc. then when theyโ€™re done playing their games they just pull the trigger on the whole thing.
Like- I will put up with a slightly more complicated system to not have to deal with that nonsense.
And I donโ€™t mind at all having to think about people with disabilities or mental health things to deal with so I can use this platform.
Thatโ€™s the easiest part, honestly.
Show threadjeSuisatire neindochohh แ˜›โฬคแ•แทJul 30, 2023

@ReneeWestberry
Well said!
Like really .. you claim people here are not kind because they ask you to be kind to the visualy impaired and add some alttext or Wrap up your Content (CW) [I definitely don't agree on "warnings", there are filters for that].
It's way more intriguing to search inside myself why and how some actually minor things like that create such strange reactions in me and find lot of illness drowning in dopamin.

And that really worries me.

@KorimakoEcology @dangillmor @kissane

Show threadAnneleise HallJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane @KorimakoEcology It felt a little daunting at first but now Iโ€™m really enjoying adding image descriptions. Iโ€™m using them like short creative writing exercises often trying to thoughtfully capture the content and feel of my image for people who canโ€™t see it. Iโ€™m also seeing a lot more in my own photos I post by doing that.
Show threadSeverine LovegoodJul 30, 2023
@AnneleiseHall thatโ€™s such a great reframe! Good on you!
Show threadjeSuisatire neindochohh แ˜›โฬคแ•แทJul 30, 2023

@KorimakoEcology
> and having to describe every one in detail is tiresome.

I went thru stages of that experience but found good reasons to fall in love with alttext. One is doing something usefull to people who really apreciate that effort and a challange to myself to evolve the capability to describe images and what to highlight in them.

Like quantity of pictures or quality of content + evolving my own capabilities.
And than there is fighting my inner "be the firstBS!"
@dangillmor @kissane

Show threaddeltatux Jul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane

Agreed, there was a lot of gatekeeping and NIMBYism during the great #TwitterMigration last year and that was off putting for many.

We should be a more welcoming community as a whole, saying hi goes a long way to #newcomers.

Also, some people really need to back off on the whole CW policing, you can come off as unwelcoming & an asshole. While there are some topics where there's consensus that CW should be used, for other topics, others may not agree with its use.

Show threadJoe โŒ๐Ÿ‘‘Jul 29, 2023
@deltatux @dangillmor @kissane Alt text is great. The CW demands, on the other hand, basically tell people that the can't be who they are on this platform because some people might find their basic expression of what they are going through or what matters to them needs to be censored.
Show thread@faktoiderJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane Much interesting stuff there. Including a stab at content warnings โ€“ many and strange โ€“ which sometimes feel like something contagious. Though the scolding was far from the only reason people got put off.

I must say I laughed at comments like โ€it felt like the LinkedIn version of Twitterโ€ and โ€it feels too much like eating your vegetablesโ€. :-D Everybody understands them, right?

Improving search is one of the main improvements asked for and I agree 100 %.

Show threadMark Squires Jul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane "Making it easy to search for and find and follow peopleโ€”those who havenโ€™t opted out of being foundโ€”would also be tremendous help"

I didn't find it as hard to find my interest group because my whole server was founded as such (food and wine). Even so, I have other interests and it took awhile to onboard them. Two techniques: hashtag searches, pin the hashtag; follow results. Then, check out who those people follow. But this to me is a downside of no algorithms.

Show threadSpicewallaJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane

Seems like maybe bluesky's best feature was being brand new. There was nobody already there trying to guard their turf.

Show threadRobertJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane

Thanks so much for that! New, and havent yet run into those responses but the howtos are invaluable.

Show threadFlorian HollenderJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane absolutely imperative to be a helpful hand to newcomers. I am one myself, but with the added โ€žegoโ€œ that I am on a self-hosted instance, and feel like I just have as much right to participate from there than anyone else, despite being late to the party and not knowing all the rules some people made up for their instances. Tolerance goes a long way though - I try to be respectful when I am met with respect, and learn from others along the way.
Show threadsocJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane This VC-think is kinda weird.
This is not a product, i. e. growth doesn't earn money, it costs money.

Are you paying, or what is your opinion based on?

Show threadMatty RosesJul 29, 2023
@soc @dangillmor @kissane more people means more content, and less in the walled gardens. Both of these are good.
Show threadsocJul 29, 2023
@mattyroses @dangillmor @kissane https://chaos.social/@soc/110776301295750030
soc (@[email protected])

@[email protected] Also, never expect journalists that use social media for "reach" and "exposure" to understand that the overwhelming majority of people using this forum to talk to friends and friends' friends are perfectly fine with how it works.

chaos.social
Show threadMatty RosesJul 29, 2023
@soc @dangillmor @kissane yeah, moving people from corporate platforms to Mastodon helps with that.
Show threadMatty RosesJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane this, but for almost everything
Show threadStevenJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane mastodon os filled with liberals. It's in their nature, they can help it.
Show threadSLCW๐Ÿ’ฅJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane We were all new at some point. It's so much better to be kind.
Show threadSpaceLifeFormJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane

I have given quite a few their first or second follow.

Show threadErosBlog Bacchus has moved!Jul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane Not to be snarky, but in my thirty years on the internet, I've formed the view that people who scold newbies do it precisely *because* the newbies are unwelcome and they want to drive them away from whatever community. I've never imagined that the early-adopter #Mastodon grognard scolds are an exception to this.
Show threadgraphictruthJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane

I have been scolded more than I deserved for things I am not sure I did for supposedly violating community norms that were difficult to discover.

Reminds me of reddit before Gamergate where those of us who are worth knowing were commonly set upon by those who are not. ๐Ÿ˜œ

Trollishly doctrinaire with forever alone sauce. I am old and impatient. I am unwilling to waste any of my future by reprising largely unsatisfactory episodes from the past.

Show threadBeatsmithJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane Yes, be uplifting not down punching
Show threadHat. AuDHD cat ๐Ÿ˜ท๐ŸŒบ๐Ÿ‰๐ŸŒป๐Ÿ”ปJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane scolding levels should be proportional to the harm done by whatever is being criticised.

harmful Actions should be met with proportional reaction (based on the experience of those who were harmed)

Show threadddouglasJul 29, 2023
@dangillmor @kissane Wish I had known about the problems with switching servers. I got the server change OK but lost all my follows, mutes, blocks, bookmarks as well as posts, etc. And even the basics were a bit confusing. This is NOT what one wants to do on a regular or even semi-regular basis.
Show threadSpaceLifeFormJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane

That is a good link that you added.

I am going to unboost and reboost in the hope that peope read it.

Full disclosure: I follow people, not labels.

Show threadJulie WebgirlJul 29, 2023

@dangillmor @kissane

Cool. No problem.

Also please explain to newcomers not to yell and demand that the new platform they have just arrived at is different than the one they came from & it needs to be changed because the newcomers are uncomfortable with new.