ImOnADietđľđ¸ (He/Him)There is a spectre haunting the lemmyverse
ShikadiI havenât heard of you yet, what are they complaining about? Iâve only heard complaints about Nazis and fascists, not commies
Drewfro66Itâs an instance for Communists, specifically Communists who support AES (actually existing socialism). In short, we think that the USSR and PRC (among others), while not perfect, were legitimate attempts at building Socialism and better than Capitalism as it exists in the West.
Other people donât like that because, to them, Stalin was just Red Hitler and Xi Jinping is literally committing a genocide right now. Neither are true.
Ah okay I can see how thatâs controversial, given China is heavy on censorship and control, and in reality theyâre just another form of capitalism run by a rich oligarchy. Plus with the way the world has changed, I think a new system is needed because weâre heading towards enough automation that not everyone should need to work.
I donât know much about the USSR so I wonât comment on that
commiespammerChina is not run by a rich ogliarchy. source: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIOg_K6Z1fg
Never Gonna Give You Up But It's MIKU Instead
I approve of the source, however disagree with the conclusions
Ok but in all honestly, just because there are rich people in China doesnât mean itâs a âcapitalist ogliarchyâ. Sure, there are billionaires in the party, but they have just as much power as any farmer or worker, no more and no less.
Thatâs not true in the slightest though? I mean the very fact that there are different wages, thereâs poverty, China invests heavily in foreign companies (both the government and private Chinese corporations), thatâs all capitalism. The farmer doesnât have any say in what tencent or the China Evergrande Group does
Oh my god there are companies, guess thereâs no more socialism guys!1!1!!1
Just because there are companies does not mean that China is revisionist. And Tencent and China Evergrande have nothing to do with the government. Why would they?
Weâre talking about communism here not socialism, I didnât say China doesnât have socialism
Iâm confused. Do you expect China to be instantly fully communist without money or class? Do you know that China started as a poor and feudal country and has constantly been under pressure and sanctions from the west?
Itâs like giving you control of an island full of people with almost no food and enemies thirsting to attack at any moment. Go on, build communism.
No, Iâm saying China is a capitalist oligarchy. Currently, right now. I donât believe it can ever become communism with the current people still in power. That can be debatable, but what they are right now is definitely not communism, and thatâs all I was saying
Yes, itâs not communism right now. But Xi Jinping is not a âcapitalist oligarchâ. And China has pulled millions out of poverty, build an advanced public transport system, given massive amounts of aid to third-world countries while helping them develop, and has cracked down on corruption. If this is a âcapitalist oligarchyâ then I will gladly support it.
I mean, I would also call the US a capitalist oligarchy, wouldnât call Biden an oligarch, and would say theyâve done the same in the past, so yeah I would still call it that personally. Thatâs generally how industrialisation under capitalism goes. Iâd even go as far as to say the US and UK had a lot of influence on it getting where it is in the first place, and itâs very difficult to do trade with the west in this world without shifting towards capitalism. (Not impossible, but difficult)
The US has not eliminated poverty. Where did you get that from? In addition, the US has done nothing to help 3rd world countries at all, only to exploit them for resources. Before you say thatâs what China is doing too, itâs not.
I did not say the US eliminated poverty and you didnât say China has eliminated poverty?
The US has indeed exploited countries for resources, but that does mean they havenât also helped in some cases, even if itâs a minority of cases
China has eliminated poverty. And China helped in every case, while the US exploited in every case. I donât see how those two are similar.
Youâre splitting hairs at this point, I donât understand why
How is that âsplitting hairsâ? If I go to your house and help you build it, is that really the same as blasting it down with explosives?
No, Iâm saying you took one small piece of what I said and latched on to it. Letâs say the US has never helped another country before for sake of argument. It doesnât change the fact that I see both countries as capitalist aristocracies
Even if China is a capitalist aristocracy, itâs done mostly good for the world. Besides, having rich people does not make a country an aristocracy.
I did not say having rich people makes a country an aristocracy, not did I say China has done no good for the world. You assumed that.
Alright, so your point is that China is run by capitalists, therefore it is revisionist and not true communism?
here
also here
Have yâall considered the âcommunistsâ in power are manipulating the peasants just like the âcapitalistsâ in power do to their wage slaves? - Lemmygrad
Seems like most of yâall just think that since the âcapitalistâ countries are run by corrupt power hungry pricks that means the âcommunistâ countries must be the good guys. Theyâre all run by power hungry billionaires and youâre all being played. (All the ââ are cuz no country is run by anyone who follows the religions i mean economic theories, theyâre all run by power hungry people who use the people and pit them against eachother to distract from the fact were dying and working for cults) inb4 the ban hammer (and sickle?) drops on me
I also want to add, I feel like I was legitimately trying to engage with you and youâve become defensive/lumped me in with others, which isnât really fair
đłď¸ââ§ď¸ ć°ć [she/they]Not the person you replied to, but we get a decent amount of bad faith posters here from other instances, and you were repeating some of those points. I donât think there was ill intent by either of you, but I can understand the confusion.
I hope we donât feel like a hostile place and I hope you learned something!
The CCP controls the media and limits free speech,
In my country like three completely unnacountable megacorporations own the media and controp free speech
and makes decisions for everyone
I donât remember being consulted on the decision to invade Iraq, continue the illegal blockade of Cuba, send missiles to Nazis in Ukraine, make food twice as expensive, have the sky turn blood red every couple years, be watched by police snipers at a football game, or drink microplastics for the rest of my life.
To the first part, to my knowledge they only care about health and safety in specific cases, but they allow for working conditions with things like lead, asbestos, toxic chemicals, etc. Foxconn is the first example that pops into my head, where workers were searches and beaten, and some were committing suicide. And back when China was buying US E waste, workers would be scavenging through dangerous phosphors and mercury, plus some mild lead exposure.
To the second part, I am not comparing China to the US, I donât believe the US government is good either, so thatâs irrelevant
Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, headquartered in Taipei. While China has a ways to go on working conditions, the overall trend (as with pretty much every other metric) is that their conditions continue to improve due to increasing regulation, ours continue to decline in the dearch for increasing profits. Iâm definitely hoping they achieve a better work/life balancr, although having been to Taiwan, Iâll say they certainly canât throw any stones in that department either lol
Yes foxconn is taiwanese, but the factories Iâm talking about are in Shenzhen China, therefore subject to Chinese labor laws. I do agree that things are improving over there, but they have a long way to go before I would say the country cares about health and safety of everyone
I donât know if the user in the rest of this thread reflects the rest of this community, but theyâre basically putting words in my mouth and disagreeing with things Iâm not even saying. Iâm anti capitalism, but that kind of behavior definitely makes me think this isnât a place I want to be a part of.
Lemmygrad is a space for Communists who support AES. If you do not support China, youâre probably correct that this instance is not for you.
But I think youâll find itâs a fine place to engage as long as you keep questions about the legitimacy of past and present Socialist experiments to the !communism101 comm.
The fact of the matter is that, while China does have billionaires, it is not an Oligarchy in the same way the United States or Russia is because these people do not hold the power in society. In China, the Communist Party does; and while you might say that the CPC overvalues its own bureaucracy and the so-called âLabor Aristocracyâ, it still more-or-less represents Working Class values. There are laws in place that mandate certain proportions of Communist Party membership and leadership come from certain positions and industries specifically to avoid it becoming beholden to the very-rich.
Iâm not pro China, but that doesnât mean Iâm not open to learning about why you are pro China. Your response is constructive and brings to the table things I didnât know and can now further research. From the perspective of someone who works for a US corp that does business with China, and who has co workers from China, workers best interests arenât being protected at any reasonable level like they are in say Germany. But I also am aware that even though my working conditions are fine, the awful working conditions for other jobs in the US (some from the same company I work for) are covered up and hidden from the public eye as well
Calling Stalin just red Hitler kind of softens what an absolute monster he was.
I know thatâs the US narrative, but Iâm not so sure thatâs based in fact.