Ben WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
I struggled for over six months to get the newsroom I worked for onto Mastodon. There were lots of reasons why not. And now they’re on Threads with ~10K followers, the engagement they need, and the tools they need to understand their audience. And their content starts conversations and is reaching people who need to see it. This stuff matters.
Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023

@ben I remember this same statement being made in 2014. “We have to get on Facebook.” Then “We have to pivot to video.”

You know the rest. There is no one more of a glutton for punishment than news media. There is no rake they won’t step on.

Show threadBen WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
@theinstantwin I actually think it’s the Mastodon project that stepped on this rake. Everyone was aligned - they just didn’t have the tools they needed to be able to sign on, and the journalists who did sign up had a terrible time onboarding (including choosing instances that turned out to be problematic).
Show threadCharles RoperJul 13, 2023
@ben @theinstantwin The added dimension to this is that those same journalists tell the stories that people listen to. So if they have a hard time with Mastodon and it doesn't meet their needs (quite different needs from most of us - massive engagement being a must), then the narrative forms that Mastodon is not good enough (too technical, low engagement, wrong tone), which makes a vicious cycle. Journalists writing stories about Mastodon is somewhat like a fish telling stories about fresh air.
Show threadCharles Roper
@ben @theinstantwin But that's not to say Mastodon doesn't have the problems. It's just those problems are sink or swim for a journalist. It's never going to work if they can't get engagement fast.
Jul 13, 2023 at 12:59pmWeb
Show threadCharles RoperJul 13, 2023
@ben @theinstantwin I'm going through a fresh alt-account start up in a non-tech domain (sport) and what I've found is that signing up is the least of the problems. The biggest problem is finding other people to follow and be followed by. A huge majority it seems sign up, do the intro post, get absolutely ZERO engagement, then are never seen again. It's excruciatingly hard following people on different instances. It's hard, slow work. I think I'll get there in the end, but it takes so much time.
Show threadBen WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
@charlesroper @theinstantwin THIS. And ignoring the problems or saying the equivalent of “works fine for me” does not help the platform improve.
Show threadAndreJul 13, 2023

@ben

@charlesroper @theinstantwin

Agree. The algorithms bootstrap people into a community in other places... The only value. Instead perhaps mastodon instance Admins should nominate welcome committees alongside mods as a role to ensure joiners get plugged in.

Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin

Just to add my small opinion to all of this.

I think, in a few ways, the "rake" here was many presuming, rather lazily, that Mastodon is a Twitter replacement. It's a substitute at best, with its own distinct motivations that are notably anti-viral or engagement.

The fediverse or AP protocol at large however is rich with potential, which has been missed in all of this. Beyond masto we can have algorithms, search, etc. Someone needs to build it though.

Show threadJonJul 13, 2023
@maegul But that just reinforces
@ben He described what the newsroom was looking for and you characterized it as "presuming, rather lazily, that it's a Twitter replacement". They're looking for something that lets them do the job and made an accurate assessment that the tools here aren't sufficient. It's true that Mastodon devs have made conscious choices that limit virality and engagement for most people, but that's what journalists and other content creators and craftspeople supporting themselves online -- and activists -- want.

@charlesroper @theinstantwin
Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@jdp23 @ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin

Not sure we're disagreeing here ... ?

What I'm saying is that the broader "rake" was expecting or demanding a platform that wasn't here, and then, depending on how much you expect of news media, bailing wholsesale on the fediverse rather than building within it.

Show threadJonJul 13, 2023
@maegul I think we're disagreeing in our framing, although maybe I'm wrong. It sounds to me like you're saying that the rake was on news media's side, and Ben (and I) are saying that the rake is on Mastodon and the fediverse's side.

@ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin
Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@jdp23 @ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin

Maybe. I think I was not so interested in blaming anyone but pointing out that there was/is a cultural moment with deficiencies/misunderstandings.

I'm personally happy to criticise mastodon for things you'd know much more about. But they're also doing well and I'm seeing other platforms struggle with basic things like scaling to moderate sizes. So I'm also inclined to think we expect too much of masto and not enough of the ecosystem.

Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@jdp23 @ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin

A little like the Stroustrup line about programming languages: there are only two kinds, those which people complain about and those which nobody uses.

At some point someone just needs to show what mastodon could do differently, successfully and at scale.

And, getting back to news media, it would have been interesting if they tried something.

Show threadBen WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
@maegul @jdp23 @charlesroper @theinstantwin I strongly believe that we need another interoperable project that takes a different approach. We can’t expect most users to be contributors to the ecosystem but for those that are able, there’s much to do. Which is not actually a criticism of Mastodon - they’ve got further than anyone else ever has.
Show threadLaurens HofJul 13, 2023
@ben @maegul @jdp23 @charlesroper @theinstantwin

yeah for sure. My eyes are on Lemmy and Kbin for this. Sustained growth, and seems likely they crossed the threshhold in size for multiple communities that can sustain itself.

Plus little to no entrenched culture allowing for quick expirementation and building. I've noticed that in my weekly newsletter update more and more size is devoted with news around lemmy and kbin.
Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@laurenshof @ben @theinstantwin @charlesroper @jdp23

Yea, there are some interesting factors there too, as you say. No established culture. Two separate platforms with a degree of symbiosis that are also kinda the underdogs against masto.

In lemmy's case, the core devs didn't want to have the flagship instance, and so there appears to be a flatter organisation amongst admins and contributors.

And they've both survived scaling to a moderate size with decent performance.

Show threadGabriel PettierJul 13, 2023
@charlesroper @ben @theinstantwin i advise following tags, as a starting point, just search them and click the follow button, it’s a gem feature, but almost impossible to discover if nobody tells you about it, of course, you might need to mute a few accounts abusing tags, but that’s less of a problem than i expected, and it gets you people that are actually talking about your subject in the TL, so you can follow the interesting ones, or just keep the tag search.
Show threadCharles RoperJul 13, 2023
@tshirtman @ben @theinstantwin Yeah, you can follow hashtags and join groups. But there's a chicken and egg element to this. Unless people actually *use* the hashtags in their posts, and unless people actually join and post to groups, then following these things doesn't help. The hashtags and groups need a critical mass of people using them to become effective, and that seems to be part of the problem, especially for people used to Twitter's algorithm, which surfaces content as if by magic.
Show threadGabriel PettierJul 13, 2023
@charlesroper @ben @theinstantwin yep, it doesn’t exactly replace an algorithm that tries to guess your interests and push them to your feed, some like that total control, some are disappointed by it, there has been a few services proposal to help, but nothing really caught on i think.
A lot of improvements would start with a better search, but there is also some fundamental opposition to that, people don’t want to, well... work.