Ben WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
I struggled for over six months to get the newsroom I worked for onto Mastodon. There were lots of reasons why not. And now they’re on Threads with ~10K followers, the engagement they need, and the tools they need to understand their audience. And their content starts conversations and is reaching people who need to see it. This stuff matters.
Show threadMatt DeSiena

@ben I remember this same statement being made in 2014. “We have to get on Facebook.” Then “We have to pivot to video.”

You know the rest. There is no one more of a glutton for punishment than news media. There is no rake they won’t step on.

Jul 13, 2023 at 12:12pmWeb
Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023
@ben I’m enjoying Threads as a user. But knowing what we know: building a strategy on third party ad networks should - in 2023 - get you fired.
Show threadBen WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
@theinstantwin I actually think it’s the Mastodon project that stepped on this rake. Everyone was aligned - they just didn’t have the tools they needed to be able to sign on, and the journalists who did sign up had a terrible time onboarding (including choosing instances that turned out to be problematic).
Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023

@ben @theinstantwin There’s no doubt the Mastodon onboarding process is harder than Meta made it. But if the main goal is engagement and distribution, we already know how this story ends.

And in 2016 i could blame Facebook. But now? I’d squarely blame the pub if I saw even one layoff as a result of “The algorithm is reducing our reach.”

Show threadBen WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
@theinstantwin I mean, what else would the goal be for a publication?
Show threadCharles RoperJul 13, 2023
@ben @theinstantwin The added dimension to this is that those same journalists tell the stories that people listen to. So if they have a hard time with Mastodon and it doesn't meet their needs (quite different needs from most of us - massive engagement being a must), then the narrative forms that Mastodon is not good enough (too technical, low engagement, wrong tone), which makes a vicious cycle. Journalists writing stories about Mastodon is somewhat like a fish telling stories about fresh air.
Show threadCharles RoperJul 13, 2023
@ben @theinstantwin But that's not to say Mastodon doesn't have the problems. It's just those problems are sink or swim for a journalist. It's never going to work if they can't get engagement fast.
Show threadCharles RoperJul 13, 2023
@ben @theinstantwin I'm going through a fresh alt-account start up in a non-tech domain (sport) and what I've found is that signing up is the least of the problems. The biggest problem is finding other people to follow and be followed by. A huge majority it seems sign up, do the intro post, get absolutely ZERO engagement, then are never seen again. It's excruciatingly hard following people on different instances. It's hard, slow work. I think I'll get there in the end, but it takes so much time.
Show threadBen WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
@charlesroper @theinstantwin THIS. And ignoring the problems or saying the equivalent of “works fine for me” does not help the platform improve.
Show threadAndreJul 13, 2023

@ben

@charlesroper @theinstantwin

Agree. The algorithms bootstrap people into a community in other places... The only value. Instead perhaps mastodon instance Admins should nominate welcome committees alongside mods as a role to ensure joiners get plugged in.

Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin

Just to add my small opinion to all of this.

I think, in a few ways, the "rake" here was many presuming, rather lazily, that Mastodon is a Twitter replacement. It's a substitute at best, with its own distinct motivations that are notably anti-viral or engagement.

The fediverse or AP protocol at large however is rich with potential, which has been missed in all of this. Beyond masto we can have algorithms, search, etc. Someone needs to build it though.

Show threadJonJul 13, 2023
@maegul But that just reinforces
@ben He described what the newsroom was looking for and you characterized it as "presuming, rather lazily, that it's a Twitter replacement". They're looking for something that lets them do the job and made an accurate assessment that the tools here aren't sufficient. It's true that Mastodon devs have made conscious choices that limit virality and engagement for most people, but that's what journalists and other content creators and craftspeople supporting themselves online -- and activists -- want.

@charlesroper @theinstantwin
Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@jdp23 @ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin

Not sure we're disagreeing here ... ?

What I'm saying is that the broader "rake" was expecting or demanding a platform that wasn't here, and then, depending on how much you expect of news media, bailing wholsesale on the fediverse rather than building within it.

Show threadJonJul 13, 2023
@maegul I think we're disagreeing in our framing, although maybe I'm wrong. It sounds to me like you're saying that the rake was on news media's side, and Ben (and I) are saying that the rake is on Mastodon and the fediverse's side.

@ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin
Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@jdp23 @ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin

Maybe. I think I was not so interested in blaming anyone but pointing out that there was/is a cultural moment with deficiencies/misunderstandings.

I'm personally happy to criticise mastodon for things you'd know much more about. But they're also doing well and I'm seeing other platforms struggle with basic things like scaling to moderate sizes. So I'm also inclined to think we expect too much of masto and not enough of the ecosystem.

Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@jdp23 @ben @charlesroper @theinstantwin

A little like the Stroustrup line about programming languages: there are only two kinds, those which people complain about and those which nobody uses.

At some point someone just needs to show what mastodon could do differently, successfully and at scale.

And, getting back to news media, it would have been interesting if they tried something.

Show threadBen WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
@maegul @jdp23 @charlesroper @theinstantwin I strongly believe that we need another interoperable project that takes a different approach. We can’t expect most users to be contributors to the ecosystem but for those that are able, there’s much to do. Which is not actually a criticism of Mastodon - they’ve got further than anyone else ever has.
Show threadLaurens HofJul 13, 2023
@ben @maegul @jdp23 @charlesroper @theinstantwin

yeah for sure. My eyes are on Lemmy and Kbin for this. Sustained growth, and seems likely they crossed the threshhold in size for multiple communities that can sustain itself.

Plus little to no entrenched culture allowing for quick expirementation and building. I've noticed that in my weekly newsletter update more and more size is devoted with news around lemmy and kbin.
Show threadmaegulJul 13, 2023

@laurenshof @ben @theinstantwin @charlesroper @jdp23

Yea, there are some interesting factors there too, as you say. No established culture. Two separate platforms with a degree of symbiosis that are also kinda the underdogs against masto.

In lemmy's case, the core devs didn't want to have the flagship instance, and so there appears to be a flatter organisation amongst admins and contributors.

And they've both survived scaling to a moderate size with decent performance.

Show threadGabriel PettierJul 13, 2023
@charlesroper @ben @theinstantwin i advise following tags, as a starting point, just search them and click the follow button, it’s a gem feature, but almost impossible to discover if nobody tells you about it, of course, you might need to mute a few accounts abusing tags, but that’s less of a problem than i expected, and it gets you people that are actually talking about your subject in the TL, so you can follow the interesting ones, or just keep the tag search.
Show threadCharles RoperJul 13, 2023
@tshirtman @ben @theinstantwin Yeah, you can follow hashtags and join groups. But there's a chicken and egg element to this. Unless people actually *use* the hashtags in their posts, and unless people actually join and post to groups, then following these things doesn't help. The hashtags and groups need a critical mass of people using them to become effective, and that seems to be part of the problem, especially for people used to Twitter's algorithm, which surfaces content as if by magic.
Show threadGabriel PettierJul 13, 2023
@charlesroper @ben @theinstantwin yep, it doesn’t exactly replace an algorithm that tries to guess your interests and push them to your feed, some like that total control, some are disappointed by it, there has been a few services proposal to help, but nothing really caught on i think.
A lot of improvements would start with a better search, but there is also some fundamental opposition to that, people don’t want to, well... work.
Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023

@charlesroper @ben I actually see the challenge in a bit more (admittedly cynical) way. Not to paint a broad brush, but journalism in 2023 is deeply and destructively lazy. (See: Any and all pubs who covered Amazon Prime Day as a news story.)

One of the best ways to boost reach for journalists is - and this is basic - making embedding Toots in WordPress dead simple.

Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023

@charlesroper @ben Then quoting a source directly and rewarming whatever the source said (This is what passed for "#journalism" in the #Twitter era) would be as simple as it was before.

That's the biggest mystery to me. Why not work with the #WordPress core team to embed toots right now?

Reach would explode.

Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023

@charlesroper @ben Developing reach and sourcing content are the most expensive parts of #journalism.

The second one seems to be such an easy solve for #mastodon . That's a miss.

Show threadCharles RoperJul 13, 2023

@theinstantwin @ben This was announced a couple of days ago:

https://jetpack.com/blog/automatically-share-content-to-instagram-mastodon-with-jetpack-social/

So they're actively working on it. This looks like a way to make it easier to publish stuff. But it's progress.

Automatically share content to Instagram & Mastodon with Jetpack Social

Dedicating time to publish content on all your social media platforms can be tedious and time-consuming. That’s why Jetpack has been working hard to create robust tools to help you automatically sh…

Jetpack
Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023
@charlesroper @ben but can you embed? That’s the killer feature for journalists. Love that this is going on.
Show threadOttoJul 13, 2023

@theinstantwin @charlesroper @ben You can in fact. in the block editor, create an embed block, and paste your URL to the post on mastodon in, and it will embed it.

While WordPress has various blocks for embedding from social networks and such, the general embed block uses oEmbed, and it can embed anything that supports the oEmbed protocol. Of which, mastodon is one.

Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023
@otto42 @charlesroper @ben Wild. Let me try it now. It would be doubly nuts if that was seamlessly integrated and news media wasn't using that, but using Twitter instead.
Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023

@otto42 @charlesroper @ben Not sure if it's my theme, a plugin, etc... but this is what happens

With Twitter, Spotify, etc. -- the embed looks beautiful and works well out of the box and is theme agnostic.

Show threadOttoJul 13, 2023

@theinstantwin @charlesroper @ben Yeah, unfortunately, that's a mastodon problem. Basically, it's falling afoul of the same origin problem. And the mastodon server needs to return a Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * header for embedded resources to allow other sites to properly embed stuff like CSS, JS, etc..

If you look in the browser console, you'll find a whole slew of different things it's trying to load, but can't because CORS/Same-Origin policy.

Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023
@otto42 @charlesroper @ben Is it something they could fix across all instances or is it my instance (and perhaps others) specifically?
Show threadOttoJul 13, 2023
@theinstantwin @charlesroper @ben Unfortunately, I know very little about the server software and how it is configured for Mastodon. It may be possible to fix across all instances by adjusting the software, or depending on the methods used, it may be much harder than that. Whoever makes the server software would know better than I.
Show threadBen WerdmullerJul 13, 2023
@theinstantwin @charlesroper I think this really depends on the newsroom. I tend to work with non-profit investigative newsrooms rather than clickbait pubs that depend on ad views. But I take your point.
Show threadMark TomczakJul 13, 2023

@ben @theinstantwin Precisely.

Ideally, the way Mastodon is designed, a newsroom “onboards” their journalists by hosting a node and setting up their journalists on it.

… I’m building a node now and, lemme tell ya, this is not something I expect just any random newsroom to have the in-house competency to do. It’s getting better, but I think it’s easy for tech folk in particular to underestimate how much “just one sysadmin” costs, or how overworked they are the minute they sign up to the average not-tech-focused firm. So with no additional information, I would assume that “Meta sets it up, all you have to do is have your team sign up for it” is a huge value-add for newsrooms and journalists by itself.

This problem will continue until we stop building tools for regular folks to use that are monuments to all our sins (seriously… four package managers? And curl-to-bash? And pulling github repos? Or you could “just use Docker” which is a whole other can of worms? And that’s just setup; God knows I’m about to throw myself to the lions when I turn this thing on and have to self-admin it).

Show threadMatt DeSienaJul 13, 2023

@mtomczak @ben I don't disagree about the node, especially since the entire point of federation from the news side would be going vertical and owning your instance/distribution.

I think they aren't estimating the true cost of the project though. Investing in a hidden algorithm you don't own and then praying it doesn't change is demonstrably not working.

I suspect it's more $ long term to over-invest in someone else's distribution/platform then pay a sysadmin.