aussiematt
Richard MacManusIn this post I explain why #Threads chose #ActivityPub as its open standard to support (instead of, say, Bluesky's protocol or Tim Berners-Lee's Solid). Also I look at some of the challenges Meta will face as it tries to join the fediverse. https://thenewstack.io/threads-adopting-activitypub-makes-sense-but-wont-be-easy/
Tim Chambers@ricmac Good catch on the Linkedin post from Savage, and great read overall !đ
@tchambers thanks! Full disclosure: I browsed your Mastodon feed as part of my research, to make sure I didn't miss anything :) You do such a great job of keeping on top of fediverse news.
@ricmac Wow, thanks! So much learning to do and everything moving so fast! Great that we all compare notes!
Sebastian Lasseâwhat it will mean for current fediverse applications (especially microblogging ones, like Mastodon)â
but wait, no ;)
microblogging without facts or when or where or multilanguage or qualified claims per `Relationship` will destroy the world.
Need to know what it means for federating wikidata or our extensive client for federating Europes largest public broadcaster and such :)
The way how war criminal Mark Z. decides about our content does not sound like humanity too.
I expected him just to be excellent to us too ;)
Juju&Baba&Yoyođ@ricmac Maybe I am in a minority, but there are more than enuff people i havent discovered presently in mastodon.
With the worry about the containment of privacy I am not excited about Meta joining.
With the worry about the containment of privacy I am not excited about Meta joining.
Pusher Of Pixels (old account)Meta can't track ppl via the ActivityPub protocol. Read this from @Gargron explaining the interactions https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2023/07/what-to-know-about-threads/?utm_source=thenewstack&utm_medium=website&utm_content=inline-mention&utm_campaign=platform
Jens Comiotto-Mayer@ricmac "Thereâs no way Meta wouldâve wanted to join the AT Protocol or Solid, because in both cases they would potentially be handing over control of identity and at least some data to their users."
To me, this translates into "Meta chose #ActivityPub over the #ATProtocol or #Solid because it wants less freedom (as in independence/autonomy) for ist users"?
@jens I think that's a fair interpretation
maegulIt was my take away too. Many were excited that ActivityPub was going to win the protocol wars because Meta chose it. But your essential point is that if you're not a fan of Meta, them choosing AP is a redflag that we may be using a bad protocol/architecture.
And for anyone who has already found the feudal server-based nature of the fediverse "suboptimal", your point really does resonate.
Thanks for the article!
An additional aspect of the fediverse that Meta might be attracted to, related its server-first "feudal" architecture, is the way it's in effect undemocratic.
mastodon.social is probably too big to defederate from, as other large instances likely are for many. Moving instance has enough friction that many won't do it if they don't *have* to. Such dynamics make it easier for meta to capture federated users while the majority may prefer not to be federated with Threads.
So ... is it a little bit like search and mastodon ... where mastodon is the only one that doesn't have search.
Is activitypub the only protocol that doesn't provide some identity independence?
ATProtocol, Nostr, Solid, Zot, AFAIU, all provide some form. Does *diaspora even?
It may actually really stand out once you look around, and it only emphasizes @ricmac's point about Meta's choice: they chose the pushover protocol?
Sheeesh, I honestly feel oddly crap about this.
@maegul @jens I think ActivityPub has lots going for it, including that it's probably the only one of the protocols you mentioned that Meta would ever support. Also it has a lot of momentum and years of work has gone into it (unlike AT Protocol) â that's important for scaling. In the end, *some* interoperability is better than none. That said, I will be looking more into AT and Solid now, from the identity perspective.
Zot may be worth a look too ... I don't know much about it but as I understand it's the protocol behind Hubzilla and Streams, which also federate with activitypub, and which are the forks of friendica, made by the founder of friendica.
It may be the protocol most in touch with activity pub.
And, AFAIU it has nomadic identity.
@maegul @jens do you know much about Zot as of 2023? Doesn't seem to be much happening on its project page: https://zotlabs.org/page/zotlabs/home
Also an active user and enthusiast of hubzilla and zot you might find much more informative than me is @jupiter_rowland
Mike MacgirvinZotlabs.org is owned by a third-party and is not related at all to current protocol development work.
What was once called Zot is now Nomad. It is still being actively developed, but I'm keeping a lot of the new work "close to my chest" while we negotiate the transition of Meta into the fediverse. Once we know more about their strategy and end-game I'll leak a bit more of mine.
What was once called Zot is now Nomad. It is still being actively developed, but I'm keeping a lot of the new work "close to my chest" while we negotiate the transition of Meta into the fediverse. Once we know more about their strategy and end-game I'll leak a bit more of mine.
Gabriele Pollara@jens @maegul @ricmac 2 days later, have now read the article - you make a v v good point @ricmac distinguishing interoperability in communications vs ownership of data on each server.
Presumably the inability to move content between Mastodon instances is by choice though. You can port your old posts from any Mastodon instance to #calckey if I understand correctly @atomicpoet. Presumably Threads will prevent that from happening to its user data.
@gpollara @jens @ricmac @atomicpoet
The one-way traffic on post porting is definitely something to watch.
IIRC, meta have announced importing posts from masto->threads will be a thing. Currently not even masto allows importing other masto posts.
Excellent article @ricmac !
@maegul Calling it "feudal" makes me think of Reddit referring to their moderators as "landed gentry" đ¤Ł
@darnell have you seen Richard's post on The New Stack? His point about how with ActivityPub "the server manages your identity" really resonates with your "identity is the new currency" in https://darnell.day/heavy-meta-four-business-reasons-why-instagram-is-using-threads-to-embrace-the
Darnell Clayton 
Toni Aittoniemi@ricmac I confess to being a âcautiousâ meta-federation advocate.
It is probably wise to not go all-in at first. The culture clash will be too strong. There are corners of the #fediverse where protection from bullying is simply the most important thing. And with scale always comes the bullying, it is a fact.
But scale also awards another thing, which is âeveryoneâ. Enough #federation, to make the safer spaces discoverable for those vulnerable, will be great if we can manage it.
ekana@ricmac I'm glad that this article explains why #ActivityPub is incredibly lacking in actual user freedom. I've felt this a lot as I've interacted her, its incredibly problematic that instance owners have so much control over your identity. It's why despite how it may have started, I think ATProtocol is a far better proposal for an open social network.
Michael Wong@ricmac
Got a question..was #ActivityPub the fastest and easiest for #meta to "grab and go" of available protocols to start a competitor for #twitter? I think if I'm #zuckerberg in Nov 2022, I say to my underlings: "Get a Twitter alternative ready NOW!!! Don't care HOW!!!". (gleefully rub my hands together at thought of #musk being sad)
Got a question..was #ActivityPub the fastest and easiest for #meta to "grab and go" of available protocols to start a competitor for #twitter? I think if I'm #zuckerberg in Nov 2022, I say to my underlings: "Get a Twitter alternative ready NOW!!! Don't care HOW!!!". (gleefully rub my hands together at thought of #musk being sad)
Andy Cowell@michaelwong @ricmac I think "quickest way" is why it integrates with Instagram. I have no idea why adding a federation protocol would make it easier or faster to release. Maybe that was the backup plan if adoption was slow.
@michaelwong @ricmac Yeah, if they wanted to be an "island" like Twitter on Instagram, they don't need those protocols.
Steve Bate@michaelwong @ricmac Meta has started a serious competitor to Twitter *without* ActivityPub. The only support for ActivityPub at the moment is verbal statements that they intend to support it in the future.
John Gordon@ricmac Does anyone ever remember OpenSocial from 2007? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSocial)
I recall Google was involved but then abandoned it for G+ (after they drank the Blood of Kali).
Jeena@ricmac this doesn't explain the why.
geolaw@ricmac "Instagram boss Adam Mosseri has said that a feed of just the people you follow is being worked on" is such a weird statement.
The code required to build a feed of just the people you follow is far simpler than the code required for a feed of trending celebrities. It just does not require that much work.
The code required to build a feed of just the people you follow is far simpler than the code required for a feed of trending celebrities. It just does not require that much work.
@ricmac now I am curious about Tim Berners-Leeâs Solid
nickapos@ricmac hey Richard, nice article. One point though, most fediverse platforms allow people to export their social graph when moving to another instance. I donât think Meta will be too keen on that.
@nickapos Meta has indicated they will let people move their followers, but I think the massive social graph of Instagram makes it more likely people will want to join rather than breakaway. If all your friends are on Instagram/Threads, why not go there? I think that is what Meta will be banking on â they wonât mind the odd person that emigrates to Eg Mastodon, as long as net immigration is positive for them.
@ricmac if you can carry with you your friends and given that you can still contact them via federation, why keep using Threads with their ads and their surveillance?
Obviously I do not expect most people to think this but some will. The majority of people will be just fine staying in Threads
Obviously I do not expect most people to think this but some will. The majority of people will be just fine staying in Threads