JasseroleJul 5, 2023
Pierre Bourdon

Add Nim to the list of languages whose community and leadership are openly sexist and racist. Was wondering when D would stop being alone on that list...

https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/10312

> Is there a Nim foundation?

> The wokes, they're cancelling He-Man!

(h/t Steve Klabnik on Birdsite)

Nim forum

Jul 3, 2023 at 6:24amWeb
Show threadasieJul 3, 2023
@delroth Wait, D is alone on that list?
Show threadPierre BourdonJul 3, 2023

@asie well, it's the only one I could remember in my recent memory having such an incident and not even trying to keep appearances.

Happy to be reminded of others to keep in the shitlist :-)

Show threadasieJul 3, 2023
@delroth What's the status quo on C++'s community/leadership in particular? I recall hearing some concerning things.
Show threadLunaphiedJul 3, 2023
@asie @delroth just as bad as they were before last we heard
Show threadUrsidinoj/The BjornsdottirsJul 3, 2023
@asie @delroth C++ hosts a sexual predator, also
Show threadSven PeterJul 3, 2023
@delroth “everybody who is older than 50 and has a hard time to change old habits” uhhhhh… that’s also wrong on so many levels.
Show threadtired blipJul 3, 2023

@delroth The Nim crew has always struck me as egregious assholes. I tried picking up the language and immediately left after seeing constant instances of the same person as in this forum thread, berating people or just generally being an insufferable dick.

Finally at least it's now in plain English and I can stop wondering if I was just misreading situations or being not generous enough - nope. He's just a dick.

Show threadBrecht SavelkoulJul 3, 2023
@delroth I was expected a thread with some back-and-forth escalating to that conclusion, but wow... your two-line summary catches pretty much exactly what went down. WTF
Show threadAriadne Conill 🐰Jul 3, 2023
@delroth @Di4na wait until you hear about how the C++ standards committee slack has a secret slack for the people they had to exclude from the main one due to conduct violations 🙃
Show threadPeter BindelsJul 3, 2023
@ariadne @delroth @Di4na Other than the "main slack" run by the people with conduct violations?
Show threadRené Ferdinand Rivera MorellJul 3, 2023
@ariadne @delroth @Di4na The C++ Standards Committee doesn't use Slack. They use Mattermost.
Show threadAriadne Conill 🐰Jul 3, 2023
@grafikrobot @Di4na @delroth I see, well, there is some C++ slack where this is the case, as I have heard others discuss it.
Show threadSalsaGalJul 3, 2023
@delroth oh lord what happened with D????
Show threadPierre BourdonJul 3, 2023
@salsagal it was a year ago so I don't have the links ready, but tl;dr "it's political to reject nazis from our community, and we don't want to be political"
Show threadBjörn LindströmJul 3, 2023
@delroth hang on, what did I miss about d? 😟
Show threadMike KnellJul 3, 2023
@delroth fwiw I am over 50 and have no problems whatsoever with master/slave terminology being deprecated. :)
Show threadmiraculous enbybugJul 3, 2023
@m @delroth «Being too old for change» in this case is literally him asking for the world to stop changing around him… and is, I believe, an insult to the ability of older people to adapt. «They’re too old to change» is a self-fulfilling prophecy in a society that denigrates older age…
Show threadMike KnellJul 3, 2023
@melunaka @delroth It's patronising bullshit. My dad is (counts on fingers) 84 and has spent the years since his retirement constantly nerding out about new technology :)
Show threadjuneJul 3, 2023
@delroth that response had nothing to do with the question, is there some deleted comment he was replying to?
like either way he's wrong but I don't see how the conversation got there
Show threadPierre BourdonJul 3, 2023
@lilacTeeth I mean, he answered the question... indirectly, and probably not in the way he intended, but I think everyone has a better understanding of how mature Nim should be considered after his post :-)
Show threadswymJul 3, 2023
@delroth the way immediately jumps into a rant about anti-sexism / anti-racism makes him seem a bit obsessed with racism and sexism... Now what would that say about him, following his own logic? 🤔
Show threadHugo DevillersJul 3, 2023
@delroth I can't believe all those cool reactionary programming languages led by a "BDFL" would have reactionary politics and authoritarian leadership styles.
Show threadbumble's (🐝) rumple (🦄)Jul 3, 2023

@gob

No disagreement, any, but how is the language reactionary? I'm not really familiar with Nim so I may just be missing something obvious.

Show threadHugo DevillersJul 3, 2023

@WammKD It seems to follow in this tiresome trend of people making C-killers that are just C with dubious syntactic sugar and a weakly typed compile-time subset bolted on top.

Those neoC languages are basically just C/C++/D again, and have to justify their existence by demonizing and rallying against X (where X can be anything orthodox: type safety, garbage collection or shared librairies).

Show threadHugo DevillersJul 3, 2023
@WammKD Nim doesn't have anything egregious on the front page to be fair, so maybe it's not entirely misguided from a technical perspective. But that's kinda moot now given the politics of its BDFL (the fact there is a BDFL is an anti-feature in of itself too of course).
Show threadbumble's (🐝) rumple (🦄)Jul 3, 2023

@gob

Ahh; I see what you mean.

Thanks a ton for the explanation!

Show threadOrca 🌻 | 🎀 | 🪁 | 🏴🏳️‍⚧️Jul 3, 2023
@delroth Imagine asking about foundation and financing and got blasted with racism and sexism in the face. ​​
Show threadTau 🏳️‍🌈Jul 3, 2023
@delroth
The list of languages to be forked
Show threadre:fi.64 Jul 3, 2023
@delroth
Oh it's always been like this, araq was on that D forum thread complaining about pronouns
Show threadPeter HebdenJul 3, 2023
@delroth Holy shit, what an unhinged response to a very simple question
Show threadMicahJul 3, 2023
@delroth I must be missing something here being someone who tinkers with D language.... There's a community?
Show threadexuJul 3, 2023
@delroth That's sad. I really like the language :/
Why can't people just let others live their lives.
Show threadPhilipp PixelJul 3, 2023
@delroth there are some replies in that Nim thread that try to brake the flame war but in a way signaling "I did my part, the rest is beyond my power" instead of ending the whole thing.
Show threadfedericoJul 3, 2023
@delroth I understand your frustration and sympathize. Please don't blame the entire #Nim community. Some of us contributors are trying hard to build a friendly community where people can feel welcome. It can be exhausting and maybe it's a lost cause at this point but we are still trying.
Show threadPierre BourdonJul 3, 2023
@federico3 that post is still up after 3 days and has 20 likes. I admire your resolve if you're trying to salvage that ship, but to me all signs indicate it's already sunk a long time ago.
Show threadGlitch (over count 1999)Jul 3, 2023
@delroth tbh its rather frustrating considering at least in my experience, nim is a very fun language to use for webdev. like, nothing really comes close to offering the flexibility of python but *with* a static type checker outside of nim.

ill probably keep using it but its very annoying to see the leadership thinks that way.
Show threadGlitch (over count 1999)Jul 3, 2023
@delroth also i'd not blame the community for this, most of them in that thread seem rather agitated that "how is the stability of nim" is answered with "the wokes want to cancel he-man" rather than any meaningful answer.
Show threadPierre BourdonJul 3, 2023
@glitch 20 likes, no ban after 3 days. I do very much blame the community, though that doesn't necessarily extend to every single one of its individual members.
Show threadGlitch (over count 1999)Jul 3, 2023
@delroth im pretty cautious about counting likes as any form of a community approval/disapproval - there's communities out there that like to "show their support" by brigading the OP whenever a thing like that happens.

also im *pretty* sure the lead dev runs those forums so a ban is probably nowhere on the table for said lead dev. cuz yknow, most forum admins wont punish themselves for rules they assume they never break, especially if they're on top of the food chain.

even outside of that, nim is one of the many small open source projects without the ability to really sustain itself outside of the core developer and like, the few people around them (and really its that one core developer) so getting rid of him would probably axe the project.

this whole situation just sucks all around. just wish there was an actual meaningful replacement for nims role.
Show threadScott the F is implicit BaxterJul 4, 2023
@delroth don't get me started on Cobalt and Fortran and VMS script.
Show threadScott the F is implicit BaxterJul 4, 2023
@delroth or COBOL , even
Show threadShaterri (he/him)Jul 4, 2023
@delroth It's not quite as open but I've been frustrated by the regular levels of transphobia and 'anti-wokeness' (albeit not phrased in that way, mostly because a lot of the relevant individuals aren't US folk) on the official Three.js Discord server.
Show threadLuke T. ShumakerAug 21, 2023

@delroth I'm out of the loop: What did Walter Bright do/say?

edit: Is https://forum.dlang.org/thread/tlwejvq[email protected] the event you're referring to?

Does D have any political goals?

D Programming Language Forum

Show threadPJan 17, 2024
@delroth I know I'm way late to this post but still. Do you or anyone else know similar stories about https://vlang.io/ or https://ziglang.org/ ?
The V Programming Language

Show threadPierre BourdonJan 17, 2024
@hellerbarde no, but it's not like I'm following what's happening in any of those communities :)
Show threadPJan 17, 2024
@delroth yeah, I figured. Thanks for the response nonetheless.