@daycoder @stavvers @Jennifer_Pinkley Yep-- This is an engineering challenge, and not because putting a kite up is difficult, but because making a system that requires minimal maintenance and management compared to the fuel savings it provides _is_ difficult when you're competing with marine diesel engines.

@kdund @daycoder @stavvers @Jennifer_Pinkley

Spinnakers have been in use for centuries.

@BillySmith @daycoder @stavvers @Jennifer_Pinkley Of course. But they were used on sailing ships with large crews dedicated to managing rigging, and there was no diesel engine on board that could propel the ship reliably and economically. Now there is, and these new systems must pay for themselves in this new context.
That is very different from usual techbro-work-- the engineering here is to make something that pays for itself in a heavily regulated industry.
@BillySmith @daycoder @stavvers @Jennifer_Pinkley Also, on sailing ships, almost by definition, the ship would travel to catch a good wind, while nowadays, demanding course deviations would not be acceptable to any great extent.

@kdund @BillySmith @daycoder @stavvers @Jennifer_Pinkley One of the exciting aspects of this, which makes them more promising in a modern context, is that sails can only reach winds at the top of a mast. The mast of the HMS Victory reached just 63m (205ft) in altitude above the water, and that was considered enormous in the Age of Sail. However, winds at higher altitudes both faster and more consistent than winds at sea level. So if you can release a kite on a wire to pull you along, it can spool out to potentially hundreds of meters and access faster, more reliable winds.

This is not a new idea, companies have been trying to perfect this technology for decades. I really hope they can finally get there! If they can make it cost effective, it could be a big part of the solution in reducing the otherwise quite hard to abate shipping emissions. https://inhabitat.com/transportation-tuesday-wind-powered-cargo-ship-takes-sail/

@k9 @kdund @daycoder @stavvers @Jennifer_Pinkley

This type of sail has been in use for centuries in fast yachts.

There's one form-factor of racing yacht that has a system for storing and launching the flying sails that's standard across most yacht designs.

@BillySmith One big difference between this and a spinnaker is that this is a lifting system, whereas a spinnaker is wholly drag-based. Wingsails on their own are sorta old, but the problem with a fixed wingsail is that performance becomes very dependent on what direction you're sailing relative to the wind. Having a free-flying lifting sail structure allows you to get all of the efficiency of a wing with (better) flexibility vs. a straight sail.

It's just insanely hard to control.

@ckfinite

TY. :D

Wingsails. :D

I knew what they looked like, but i didn't know the name. :D

I'll dig through the tech-spec's to see how well the kite-sails work.

@BillySmith Kitesails are great on paper - you're looking at like 30-40% more power generation vs. a wingsail even. There's even complete memes like the SP80 high speed sailboat that wants to hit 80kts that use them.

They work great for sporting or for one-off demos, the problem is then using them at sea, for a long time, in poor weather. The kite isn't cheap and if it crashes you're probably not getting it back - so a lot is riding on the flight controller to keep it around.

@BillySmith I have a few friends who work on stationary and mobile kitesail control and it's only like... the last 5-10 years that flying them truly automatically became realistic in my opinion. Even then I don't think that they'll work in "the real ocean" because the real world hates your clever control algorithm and will hit you with the worst wind at the wrong time and goodbye sail.

A few papers I liked
* https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Richard-Leloup/publication/269695472_Kite_and_classical_rig_sailing_performance_comparison_on_a_one_design_keel_boat/links/57bebe1e08aeda1ec3864a33/Kite-and-classical-rig-sailing-performance-comparison-on-a-one-design-keel-boat.pdf
* https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/44725651.pdf
* https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1312/11/1/117

@ckfinite

:D Chewy :D

TY :D

I only ever saw the wingsails being used in good weather.

@ckfinite

Also, looking at canal boats in London, and i think, "Living on a boat would be nice", but then i remember the seas around coastal Scotland in Winter... :D