Matt Blaze

Irritated that Capture One (basically a raw image processor bundled with a better version of Lightroom) has moved to an Adobe-style subscription model. At least they still let you buy a permanent copy (and basically give you the current version for free after 5 years as a subscriber).

Having to buy an annual subscription to manage and edit my own work reminds me how vulnerable we are to the business-model-du-jour of proprietary platforms we rely on.

#photography

Jun 22, 2023 at 4:06pmWeb
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
If you shoot raw photos (as almost all serious photographers do), you pretty much *have* to use either Capture One or Adobe Camera Raw, and if you have a large catalog of photos, the library features of Capture One and Lightroom become increasingly essential. So in practice, there's no escape from proprietary platforms for serious digital photography today. Better hope whichever system you buy in to stays in business (and doesn't price you out in the future).
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023

Yes, I know about Darktable. No, it's not a substitute for Capture One or Adobe. Good raw processors (like C1 and ACR) run circles around any of the free processors out there, and are the only game in town that can properly handle raw files from some cameras.

That said, other than the business model, I'm happy with C1. It's worth paying for. But the degree to which I'm vulnerable to lock in makes me very nervous.

Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
My own practice for "future-proofing" my catalog is that for every "finished" image, I export a 16-bit TIFF and a full resolution high quality JPG. But that's only after I've processed it in Capture One.
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023

Please spare me the lecture about the moral superiority of free or open source software. I've been around for a while. Google me. Whatever you've got to say, there's an excellent chance I've heard it before.

Right now, in 2023, for photographers, the choice is between propriety software or something that doesn't work very well. I don't *like* that reality, but denying it doesn't help me make good photos.

Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
Several people have now scolded me for being a “proprietary software apologist”. I congratulate them on their very creative interpretation of this thread.
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
The lesson for photographers here is simple: get a good tripod, and use it. It won’t help at all with the proprietary image processing software problem, but you’ll make better photos.
Show threadKarl AuerbachJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze For video stuff I often use a monopod - it can make a world of difference (for the better.)
Show threadNorman WilsonJun 23, 2023
@karlauerbach @mattblaze You're promoting evil monopodculture!
Show threadBill Taroli Jun 22, 2023

@mattblaze but how do you keep your subject perched on the tripod long enough to get all the camera settings dialed in?

Wait, whut?

Ohhhhhh..!!!!!!

Show threadNorman WilsonJun 23, 2023
@btaroli @mattblaze That's what the screws are for. Always hire big ones with their own cuffs.
Show threadBruceJun 22, 2023

@mattblaze

Learning how to use it is also useful. You can't shoot events from a tripod. :) I can't shoot macro without one.

Show threadsxpertJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze my take on this is that companies going defunct should be forced to make all proprietary info public
Show threadSteven LiptonJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze they misspelled fatalist.
Show threadDan McDonaldJun 22, 2023

@mattblaze

If you want, I can share you a mid-90s story about a GPL bigot bringing unwanted attention (because of left-hand vs. right-hand properties) to us at NRL because our project wasn't "free" enough.

Show threadjust_one_bearJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze Folks get angry and they want a target for the anger and by gum they will have a target even if they have to invent it themselves!
Show threadDarryl Wright 🇨🇦🎧Jun 22, 2023
@mattblaze
It's strange how you get older and more experienced but the long tired arguments keep resurfacing with subsequent generations of enthusiasts. Where tech meets capitalism, some things never get settled, I guess.
Show threadsxpertJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze wasn’t even remotely thinking of lecturing, just asking a legit question.
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
@sxpert That wasn't directed at you!
Show threadOdiseoJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze Exactly. Denying reality won't help the FOSS community to make better software, neither.
Show threadJustinas DūdėnasJun 22, 2023

@Odiseo79
@mattblaze

Seriously relying on any subscription based software is like taking a loan, where the lender changes interest rates at his will.

Show threadNorman WilsonJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as free or open source software is, of course, GNU/Software, all personally written by Richard Stallman, or as I've taken to calling him, Creepy Richard.
Show threadLauren WeinsteinJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze I'm surprised you don't save RAW for everything you can!
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
@lauren I do. But there's no guarantee that a raw converter for my camera will exist in the future.
Show threadsxpertJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze @lauren
Is said camera supported by rawtherapee ?
Show threadFritz AdalisJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze
@lauren
Huh, having not worked with pro stuff I didn't realize RAW wasn't a standard. Makes more sense now, thanks.
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
@FritzAdalis @lauren There's a "standard" called DNG that some camera vendors use. Except it's not really a standard, since you still need very specific knowledge of the sensor characteristics to take full advantage of it.
Show threadRoy WigginsJun 22, 2023

@FritzAdalis @mattblaze @[email protected] raw isn't even a format, it's just whatever the camera writes, so there's approximately as many raw formats as there are cameras (though I'm sure some are so similar as to be identical). For years eg you simply couldn't process images off cameras with x-trans sensors with free software because it has a different color filter pattern and de-mosaicing needs to take that into account.

(this isn't really the fault for a lack of standard, as Matt says in the sibling post, a DNG with x-trans raw data in it will still need to be demosaiced correctly to work, and for a long time nobody had implemented it in free software. I imagine there are other situations like this too)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujifilm_X-Trans_sensor

Fujifilm X-Trans sensor - Wikipedia

Show threadcukieJun 22, 2023

@roywig @FritzAdalis @mattblaze

Thanks for this! Starting to understand why people have said that processing in darktable for X-Trans sensors has been less than ideal. Is the issue that camera manufacturers dont supply information openly enough, that there’s not enough dev time for open source projects to implement algos for each RAW format, or some other reasons/combinations of problems?

Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023

@cukie @roywig @FritzAdalis All of the above. RAW conversion involves a *ton* of very camera- (and, more broadly, also lens-) specific data, which might not be readily available (especially for newer cameras or after firmware updates), and possibly is treated as a trade secret.

And full featured raw converters often also do more than just convert the sensor bits. They also compensate for specific distortions produced by individual lenses. This is a *lot* of work just to collect data for.

Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
@cukie @roywig @FritzAdalis This becomes especially clear when new cameras come out. You can't sell a camera if no one can process the raw images. So vendors work closely (and under NDA) with Adobe and C1 to get them ready to roll out raw support for their new models on day one. The open source systems are left to catch up later.
Show threadcukieJun 22, 2023

@mattblaze @roywig @FritzAdalis

Makes a ton of sense. Was curious about darktable in particular and here’s their process. It’s a very community-driven effort, and you can definitely see how the open source ecosystem has to do a ton more work to get camera support in.

https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/wiki/Camera-support

Camera support

darktable is an open source photography workflow application and raw developer - darktable-org/darktable

GitHub
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
@FritzAdalis @cukie @roywig yep. The relationship between the commercial software vendors and the camera manufacturers puts the open efforts at an inherent (and sometimes effectively insurmountable) disadvantage.
Show threadJoe RocklinJun 23, 2023
@mattblaze @FritzAdalis @cukie @roywig I wonder if an organization like DPReview would be able to take on the process of creating source data for these projects. It seems like that crew would have the understanding of creating high quality data to feed the open community.
Show threadFrederickJun 25, 2023
@roywig @FritzAdalis @mattblaze I work at a company that deals with processing raw data from multiple different camera sensors. We typically read out and save our data straight into binary data (like raw numpy arrays), or we read it off as a monochrome PNG or BMP. I know we could do a similar thing with TIFF but it's on our backlog. Absolutely no processing on top of it. Once we have the raw data we can debayer if we want.
Show threadFrederickJun 25, 2023
@roywig @FritzAdalis @mattblaze I'd be surprised if the Bayer pattern of your camera isn't online somewhere. I understand there are probably other things you are concerned about though and I don't know if you have enough access to the RAW data to export directly without processing to a lossless format (or just binary 🙈). We also design our optics for specific applications outside of the fixed sensor.
Show threadFrederickJun 25, 2023
@roywig @FritzAdalis @mattblaze
Optics and photography isn't really my area, but as a data scientist that has to work with this raw data I really can emphasize enough that (at least for me) doing any processing on top of that truly sullies the data. It's not a change you can just reverse if you would want to do processing from raw with another method in the future. There is also a chance in the future that the data on your camera gets dumped as it ages. Maybe I'm just too much of a data hoarder though...
Show threadFrederickJun 25, 2023
@roywig @FritzAdalis @mattblaze
also I'm spoiled in so much that I get a almost live raw video feed from my sensors. I'm honestly not sure what is possible with current prosumer hardware in terms of owning your data.
Show threadEric BorischJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze @lauren DNG seems like it should be a nice archival format, but I’m not sure it’s ever really taken off.
Show threadÖlbaumJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze @lauren And even if one still exists, it won’t be able to apply the adjustments you made in the old software, so you need archival of the processed pictures anyway. I’m a former Aperture user, and I’m screwed. No software imports its adjustments, nor its classification.
Show threadDavid MichaelsJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze @lauren And losing edits is a huge loss of energy spent as well!
Show threadcynicalsecurity Jun 22, 2023
@mattblaze may I ask why 16-bit TIFF? Is that a good-enough substitute for raw? I am genuinely curious as I have photos in Apple’s own raw format I’d like to export for long-term storage.
Show threadSteve BellovinJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze Have you checked out ON-1? It doesn’t suit my needs, because I rely heavily on keywords and smart collections.
Show threadOblomovJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze I wonder if a few professional photographers sponsoring darktable development could help bring it closer to the commercial software, or would you say the gap is too wide?
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
@oblomov For raw processing the gap is very wide. Basically, building a good raw converter requires working very closely with each camera (and lens) vendor.
Show threadOblomovJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze ah, I think I finally get which level you're referring to. We have a similar issue with satellite imagery, but vendors there are more open about all the details so it's comparatively easier to implement the processing (the necessary parameters are often even embedded in the files themselves). Pity that this isn't the case for photo.
Show threadShambolic MatterJun 22, 2023

@mattblaze Getting burned by SAAS has made me much more concerned about lock in.

"Feature X used to work great and was included with BasePackage. Now it's an optional extra that's included in the new ExtraSpendy tier. Don't like it? Tough!"

Show threadjoe chingJun 22, 2023

@mattblaze

Not sure what parts of Darktable didn't work for you, but there is a fork called ansel.photos made by one of the main DT devs.

Ansel dev is also very pragmatic and is not a free software absolutist. He just wants the tool to work without being preachy about free software. So it seems right up your alley

Show threadelle mundyJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze lightroom user here, but i wonder if converting to dng first helps the compatibility situation
Show threadMatt BlazeJun 22, 2023
@exchgr It depends. If your camera isn’t producing DNG natively (and only a few do), DNG is basically just TIFF plus some additional metadata. So the conversion often destroys some information from the sensor that was present in the original raw format file.
Show threadelle mundyJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze oh dang, that’s not great. (also i didn’t know dng was a tiff wrapper!)
Show threadJeff C. 🇺🇦🇬🇱Jun 22, 2023

@mattblaze As it should. I still have a bunch of stuff in Aperture that I’ve yet to do anything with.

(Related: I really miss Aperture)

Show threadSilentMobiusJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze is that because the adjustment algorithms are just better and using proprietary and secret methods or is it a usability problem making it difficult to get to the same end point?
Show threadkw4epJun 23, 2023
@mattblaze Have you tried using Capture One with wine?
Show threadPaul KoenigJun 23, 2023
@mattblaze Unfortunately, I can’t see open source keeping up with new cameras and I can’t see new cameras driving upgrades. Plus, if new camera means additional money for software upgrades, that could open window to competition. Economy is the shaper of the universe alas.
Show threadWill Jun 22, 2023

@mattblaze I'm slowly trying to get off of Adobe.

I've moved to iMatch for library management. It's taking time to get everything organized, but it definitely is faster/better than lightroom in that regards.

Then, just need to find an editor that I can buy a perm license for.....

Show threadNicholas WeaverJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze
Here is looking at you Apple... Aperture was nice while it lasted for prosumer level.
Show threadOblomovJun 22, 2023
@mattblaze
is darktable good enough for that level of professional work yet?
https://www.darktable.org/
I've only ever used it very amateurishly, but it always seemed to me as having much more that was just behind my competence for use.
darktable

darktable is an open source photography workflow application and raw developer

darktable
Show threadDavidJun 22, 2023

i've gotten much better at using darktable and that software itself has gotten much better since i've started using it a few years go.

it's a free and open source raw photo editor i recommend everyone learn to use

i'd be happy to invite others to a live edit session next time i capture an event for probonophoto

Show threadBruceJun 22, 2023

@drdrowland

I tried it several years ago. It was too cumbersome and so I found the $5/month worth it. Changing now would be painful (well over 10,000 photos).

Show threadDavidJun 22, 2023
the 10k past captures can be used in darktable, can they not? i was just now thinking about this issue and i'm confident there is a way to convert the sidecar files. i'll check if you tell me the format.