aboxofsox 🧙♂️I'm not sure if I buy the whole #meta #facebook killed #xmpp. I've seen several services, with large user bases, using xmpp, or some abstraction of the same protocol. I don't think the concerns are invalid, I just think there's a bit more to it.
j.r / Julian@aboxofsox they made XMPP (as a federated messaging protocol) irrelevant/disappear from the broader public, but they did not destroy the protocol itself, especially the client to server protocol is still used by said closed silos
@jr is it because they chose to use MQTT over XMPP? I'm not sure I follow. Maybe I'm not sure where the correlation lies between Facebook and XMPP losing momentum.
@aboxofsox they did not choose something else, but they rather gradually stopped federating with the network, when they had a big enough user base, from what was told me.
Maybe some #xmpp veteran out there could describe it better...
Lord@aboxofsox And yet, none of those services can work with the others.
Who cares that’s xmpp if you can’t use the server of your choice, to connect with the client of your choice to speak to any other user of xmpp ? It could be any protocol that wouldn’t be different.
Aswath Rao@aboxofsox
My take on the "bit more"s: For sure FB Messenger or GChat didn't kill XMPP. But they exacerbated the Federation fault lines built into the protocol. There Federation is a bilateral agreement. So if a big node refuses to federate small nodes are blocked out. That is what happened. I don't think the services you identify federate among themselves. It is my opinion that these two deciding to opt out of federation gave license to second stringers to opt out as well.
My take on the "bit more"s: For sure FB Messenger or GChat didn't kill XMPP. But they exacerbated the Federation fault lines built into the protocol. There Federation is a bilateral agreement. So if a big node refuses to federate small nodes are blocked out. That is what happened. I don't think the services you identify federate among themselves. It is my opinion that these two deciding to opt out of federation gave license to second stringers to opt out as well.
@aboxofsox
In contrast, to date the default posture in Fediverse is to federate w others. Defederation of the whole node is considered to be a nuclear option. Even with Meta. The fear is losing this outlook on federation.
In contrast, to date the default posture in Fediverse is to federate w others. Defederation of the whole node is considered to be a nuclear option. Even with Meta. The fear is losing this outlook on federation.
@aswath I see. It's more of an argument for the anti-federation rather than "Meta/Facebook killed XMPP". I think that's much more reasonable and can agree to that. Then at what point do you move away from XMPP to meet business needs? Or maybe that's a question federation isn't equipped to address if you were to maintain that culture.
@aboxofsox With the advent of WebRTC, loss of Federation is not of concern. If your node refuses to fed with mine, I could share a WebRTC link with you, so you can init a chat session w me.
I am not sure that kind of escape mechanism is readily available in AP based Fediverse.
Oblomov@aboxofsox do they federate? No. The potential for cross network communication, which is what XMPP was designed for, has completely disappeared from the general public consciousness. See the parallel with ActivityPub yet? You're just reinforcing the point here.
@oblomov I don't think there's anything to reinforce here. The argument being played out is "Meta killed XMPP". It's not as simple as it sounds. Maybe "Meta diluted the potential of XMPP" would be easier to digest. Only siths deal in absolutes.
@aboxofsox are you seriously trying to pull this kind of semantic deflection here? XMPP was purported to be the open protocol that would allow interoperability of the mess of clients and platforms for instant messaging. When Facebook and Google adopted it —with federation!— it was declared a huge win because finally you could communicate with people on a different major service thanks to the protocol. Is that what you're seeing now? Do I need to spell out the parallels with ActivityPub?
@oblomov no. But you don't have to be a dick about it.
@aboxofsox that's rich from someone who told me to not be a sith
@oblomov it was a euphemism