BorderCollieGuyJun 16, 2023
Geoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟ

Following an informal discussion with a student at work - were the WWII nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki war crimes?

Caveat 1: By your standards, not international law at any given time.

Caveat 2: No, not a poll, this is a highly nuanced argument which doesn't benefit from "click a button yes/no".

Me? I tend toward yes. I get the arguments against e.g. demonstrating the weapon in an unpopulated or military-only area, but not convinced.

Jun 16, 2023 at 11:01pmWeb
Show threadPeter BrettJun 16, 2023

@_thegeoff I also tend towards yes, but I also feel like the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden was actually considerably worse.

War is hell ๐Ÿ˜Ÿ

Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 16, 2023
@krans Yeah, none of it was fun. Carpet bombing cities had much the same effect, minus the fallout, which the military didn't even realise was an issue.
Show threadBorderCollieGuyJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff
Yes! Innocent civilians slaughtered.
Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 16, 2023
@brentk <devils adocate> Japan had sworn to fight until every person was dead. Minimise total casualties in the long run?
Show threadBorderCollieGuyJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff
Hirohito was a tyrant. After the war USA allowed him to stay in power. USA loves its dictators.
Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 16, 2023
@brentk Part of the problem is that Hirohito was a god. In some views at least. It's not a negotiation with a political power. War is bad enough without religion becoming involved.
Show threadBorderCollieGuyJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff
Lets not forget the USA bombing of Dresden in Germany. Neutral city was almost wiped out.
Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 16, 2023
@brentk UK also targetted dams which caused mass casualties, including slave labour. Then we agreed it was bad. And yet...
Show threadBorderCollieGuyJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff
That's another strange thing. England would have enslaved Americans given the chance and then later it was comes USA happy to save it from Hitler.
Show threadVolkerJun 17, 2023
@brentk @_thegeoff how exactly was Dresden a neutral city?!
Show threadBorderCollieGuyJun 17, 2023
@vmexell @_thegeoff
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/apocalypse-dresden-february-1945
Apocalypse in Dresden, February 1945 | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

What happened in Dresden in February 1945 was apocalyptic.

The National WWII Museum | New Orleans
Show threadVolkerJun 17, 2023

@brentk @_thegeoff even what you link says:

โ€œDespite postwar claims that Dresden had no military significance, it was in fact a rail center important to the Third Reichโ€™s faltering war effort in the East. There were also factories engaged in arms production there.โ€

Show threadLegalQuiltsJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff I wrote my master's thesis on Charge 2 of the Nuremberg Trial which was crimes against peace. I think an argument could be made that the dropping of the nukes and the firebombing of Tokyo could have been considered war crimes. While all 3 cities were legitimate military targets there was no attempt to hit purely military targets only. It was indiscriminate. You could not even argue mistakes hapoen and bombs don't always hit the ibtended target. Here the entire area was intended.
Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 16, 2023
@legalquilts They were purposefully detonated well above the ground to cause damage on city scales. The argument being (I don"t need to explain) that the populous had to see the results in a way the Japanese government couldn't possibly dismiss.
Show threadLegalQuiltsJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff which meant civilians could not be protected to any extent.
Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 16, 2023
@legalquilts There had been leaflet drop campaigns for other major bombings of Japan, there seems to be some argument over whether they were used before Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Show threadLegalQuiltsJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff okay they warned them. But there was no effort to only hit military targets lije warehouses, factories and the like. Sure hones get hit by errant bombs but they aren't the target.
Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 17, 2023
@legalquilts It wasn't for a moment an attack on a military installation, they just made sure to include one as part of target selection to tick an ethics box. And hey, bonus military target.
I'm not being controversial in saying it was purely a demonstration of a small city-killing weapon.
Show threadLegalQuiltsJun 17, 2023
@_thegeoff no you are not.
Show threadJeremy NichollsJun 17, 2023
@legalquilts @_thegeoff I think some argued that the whole of Japanese society was militarised, so there were no civilians. Bit of a stretch.
Show threadDreadnought HolidayJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff Problem with caveat one is that something being a crime is defined by law, not feels, vibes or gut. Doesn't stop the law being an ass though.
Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 16, 2023
@DreadShips In this context, I'm more interested in real people's opinions than the courts of the 1950s.
Show threadDreadnought HolidayJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff sure, but the war crime phrasing is a distraction from the actual question of whether it was right to do or not
Show threadDreadnought HolidayJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff fwiw though, by the standards of the day it wasn't uniquely horrible in either intent or impact. At same time those standards were absolutely not those that (post-war Western) society would accept today.
Show threadDreadnought HolidayJun 16, 2023

@_thegeoff and to be honest I have more problems with the bombing campaign in Europe in 1944 and 45. Arthur Harris at that point had one of the most destructive forces in history under his command, but he regularly ignored intelligence reports and requests from other branches of the services in favour of simply flattening cities.

Every single one of those raids involved his men dying. He had a responsibility to sacrifice those lives wisely. I don't believe he did.

Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 17, 2023
@DreadShips Barnes Wallace, Oppenheimer, "WTF have I done?" Seems to be a thread.
Show threadDreadnought HolidayJun 17, 2023

@_thegeoff Very much eyes wide open.

Going back to the original question, what would I want your student to learn from the conversation? That morality and legality are two separate things, and that the decision they'd make in 2023 is not necessarily the one they'd make in 1945. I doubt we're too far apart on that.

Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 17, 2023
@DreadShips
Not really a history thing, more that students like the spectacular explosive stuff, so we're talking about nukes. And I wander into ethics in science a bit.
Show threadGeoff ๐Ÿด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟJun 16, 2023
@DreadShips I see that as a different question that can't be answered without being able to see a multiverse.
Would killing Baby Hitler be illegal? Yes.
Would killing Baby Hitler make today better? Complex...
Show thread@jctallenJun 16, 2023
@_thegeoff Yes, war crimes.
Show threadVolkerJun 17, 2023

@_thegeoff A voice for the โ€œnoโ€ camp:

https://youtu.be/voF7KCOm6eY

Scars of History: Allied Bombings were justified

YouTube