ArachneHuh. This is something I did not know (but then, I am not a Talmudic scholar) The Talmud recognizes 8 genders. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-eight-genders-in-the-talmud/
Noam writes@Arachne Hmmm... I think it's misleading to say this is discussing eight 'genders'. The entire discussion is about biology, not identity. There's nothing in the piece about what the person wants or how they identify. It's simply the regular Talmudic analysis of 'case law', if you will, that is: how to apply Jewish law to the people who's bits don't neatly fit into fertile male and female.
@noam I see your point, but like a good Jew I'll argue with you. if the concept of gender (vs. bio sex) is not extant, can it be not discussed? (sorry for the double negative). Also, while it was a translation, I see the author speaking about people who chose to change gender, despite bio sex so doesn't that count?
@Arachne I don't really see the discussion about choice there. Of course you can discuss gender in these contexts, but I don't think these rabbis were discussing gender.
I'd rather a discussion about trans, nonbinary and genderqueer Jews wasn't based on these rabbis' ideas, to be honest. I'd rather question gender roles within the tradition and make everything more inclusive.
@noam I don't see this as a modern argument, but an example of how the concept and thinking about gender in an inclusive and acceptable way is not something new, nor is it universally condemned by all religions.
It is more a direct refutation of some of the current BS being spewed by the Christofacists (and some Orthodox Jewish fundis). It won't change their minds, but it could open eyes/minds of people who are only hearing their side.
@noam
I also see it as a reclaiming of religion from these asswipes and parallel to discussions of abortion and how it is portrayed in Jewish law.
Which is another point - Judaism is a legalistic religion, so the way concepts in commentary are presented is in very legalistic ways. Again, I am not presenting this as how it should be approached today, just a counterpoint to their crap.
Of course, Jews are suspect and othered by the same people, but again not the audience.
@Arachne That's fair enough. I'm not really interested in Hallachic debates. As I see it, middle age interpretations of the bible are no better or worse than modern ones. I'm also not very interested in debating Christians (or even Orthodox Jews) about Judaism. My view is that my tradition is my heritage, and I'm not obliged to follow it any more than I like. I can change it, re-interpret it, or even abandon it. But then, I grew up in Israel, so maybe I have a different perspective than you.
@noam I get it. I just see it as fighting with their tools. Same as the parent that got the Bible banned in a county in Utah.
I hate the hypocrisy of all fundamentalists. I know their minds won't be changed, but I like challenging their death grip on religion - just like the U.S. right has tried to own "patriotism"