flexghost.Teachers pay taxes.
Nurses pay taxes.
Bus drivers pay taxes.
You pay taxes.
The Mormon church is a real estate holding company with a Political Action Committees as a hobby.
Tax them.
Rory@flexghost You would think that they would be using that money to help those in need... Instead, I'm sure that money is going to right-wing hacks... with the promise that if republicans win, those in dire need lose... Are we sure that this Mormon place is a church, and not a MAGA town hall?
Karl Oscar Weber@customer228 @flexghost Hi friends.
I’m LDS, and I looked into this fund. The articles/whistleblower are kind of disingenuous. The church has a savings fund that they’ve been building for something like 50 years.
The church spends billions a year for basically charity stuff. Plus the church has a really comprehensive private welfare system: Food, Clothes, Furniture, Rent.
It’s just kinda silly.
obscurestar@Kowfm @customer228 @flexghost 'Private Welfare' isn't welfare. I know many former mormons and LGBT who have experienced the 'kindness' of the LDS.
My friend got out of a Mormon conversion therapy camp by rubbing rotted food in a wound she kept hidden until it was so infected she had to be helicoptered out to a hospital. She now does org work for a network of mormon re-education-camp survivors.
@obscurestar This is the weirdest thing I have ever heard. The LDS church doesn’t operate that sort of shit. But it sounds like a plausible think to have happened.
Private welfare, is not public welfare, for sure. But taken in the context that the LDS church has a shit ton of savings, the welfare program directly and substantially supports those in need.
@Kowfm There are several first-hand accounts of the same:
Saving Alex is a good one.
Here's a paper from a psychologist working with 50 survivors of Mormon conversion therapy https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0011000004267555
etc. They've very good at suing people into silence or you'd have heard more about it.
This is very interesting.
Personally I have never heard of conversion therapy run by LDS folks but there are a lot of weird cultural things that you encounter when interacting with certain communities in the Church.
Most of my interaction with the church and it's members has been with the Spanish Speaking community over the last 15 years. We went to church in Spanish for a long time. But the English speaking wards (congregations) in Utah are a little weird.
Brian Beeler@Kowfm @customer228 @flexghost "The church spends billions a year for basically charity stuff."
{{Citation needed}}
@Kowfm @flexghost "I’m LDS, and I looked into this fund. The articles/whistleblower are kind of disingenuous."
How are they disingenuous? Please be specific. From what I've read they seem credible. The whistleblower has submitted proof tithing funds were transferred to Beneficial Financial Group (a Church owned company) in 2009 to support it during the 2008 housing crash. That is a direct violation of US Federal law.
Do you think Australia's tax fraud lawsuit is also disingenuous?
@brianbeeler @flexghost no it’s not. It’s not a violation of US Federal law.
I have no idea about an Australian tax fraud lawsuit. But I’m not going to defend it. If you mess up with your books, then you ought a pay.
It’s disingenuous to assume that a church isn’t allowed to have a savings fund. Or that performing a bailout during a financial crisis is improper.
@Kowfm @flexghost "no it’s not. It’s not a violation of US Federal law."
Wait, what? Not-for-profit organizations are required by US Federal law, specifically US Federal tax codes, to only use funds donated to them for charitable purposes. Building temples: legal. Propping up a failing, multi-billion corporation: not legal. The laws are all too clear on this. Saying "It’s not a violation of US Federal law" is irrational.
The 60 Minutes Australia report: https://youtu.be/pFddArTfjhQ
Mormon church accused of ripping off taxpayers by millions of dollars | 60 Minutes Australia
@brianbeeler it’s not illegal. Saying I’m irrational is dismissive.
Now you can make an argument that it is immoral, but legality and morality aren’t the same thing.
The bailout of a life insurance company during an economic crisis, one owned by the church, doesn’t appear immoral.
@Kowfm "it’s not illegal"
"The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational... " and a list of what the IRS considers charitable purposes are listed. Propping up a failing, multi-billion dollar corporation isn't on that list.
"Exemption Requirements - 501(c)(3) Organizations"
Also "The Mormon church in Canada: Where did more than $1 billion go? - The Fifth Estate"
https://youtu.be/NgxGYUyvJio
@brianbeeler @Kowfm because he doesn’t like what they’re saying therefore it’s fake news.
I wonder how disingenuous all the reporting of LDS sexual abuse of children and adults are?
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/23b-awarded-sex-abuse-lawsuit-named-mormon-church-98916403
https://www.insider.com/mormon-church-set-up-help-line-to-bury-abuse-accusations-2022-8
@flexghost "because he doesn’t like what they’re saying therefore it’s fake news."
"It's better to have questions we can't answer than answers we can't question."
Much of what drives the zealots in the Mormon church can be explained with TMT (Terror Management Theory) which is the fear of death governs all human actions.
While Christians believe in a paradise Mormons believe they'll also get to become gods and goddesses of their own planet and give birth to billions of "spirit children".
@brianbeeler well said. I won’t even go into their barbaric conversion therapy. Just repulsive. Those blank wide eye smiles from their cult members are hiding sharp teeth
"Conversion therapy" is torture. Gay folk need love, compassion, understanding and to be treated like everyone else. Not torture.
Where I last lived was very close to a 220 foot statue of Quán Thế Âm Bồ Tát aka Guan Yin who started off as a man, Avalokiteśvara, in India and by the time she hit the Pacific coast was a woman. Kinda like the Lou Reed song. =)
A society with a 220 foot statue of the transgender Bodhisattva of Compassion is an enlightened society.
@brianbeeler treating the LGBTQ community is anathema to American Christians and Mormons
@flexghost @brianbeeler I don’t think it’s fake news. I think it’s disingenuous because it removes nuance from the actual situation.
I don’t think the reporting of mismanagement of Sexual abuse claims are disingenuous at all. That’s some fucked up shit and that has to be taken care of.
@Kowfm @flexghost "I think it’s disingenuous because it removes nuance from the actual situation."
Please explain your thoughts on the various levels of "nuance" concerning Mormon church leaders engaging in pedophilia. Maybe it's sometimes acceptable since Joseph Smith had multiple 14 year wives?
Everyone reading this thread knows you won't answer my question and will just change the subject. Why? Because that's all you do. My advice is walk away. No one's buying what you're selling.
@brianbeeler @flexghost I'm sorry, you may be confused. My message was a response to different thoughts as sent by Flexghost. Please re read my previous message with that in mind.
Just like I said you would you changed the subject. Please answer my question and direct that answer to me.
@flexghost @brianbeeler Yeah I didn’t say that we need to define abuse. Or that there is nuance there.
Barry Parr@barryparr @customer228 @flexghost No. You can look at their fancy published report here: https://assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/c1/00/c10076f3a7d111ed9d03eeeeac1eb1c62ef513d9/welfare_caring_for_those_in_need_2022_annual_report.pdf
.
.
@Kowfm @customer228 @flexghost that’s a press release. It also contradictory statement they spend billions on charity.
@barryparr Looks like I was wrong, Billion instead of billions.
@Kowfm a billion here, a billion there …
Soon it adds up to real money.
I’m on the board of a 501(c)(3). We are required to spend 3% of our assets on our charitable purpose.
Looks like the church is only spending 1% assuming this press release is correct which we don’t know
If the church has like $150 Billion in savings, and the annual expenditures are around $7 billion, combining church operations and charitable stuff, then that's something like 20 years of budget.
The LDS church doesn't pay most of the "clergy". So local leaders, bishops, etc... are unpaid. General Authorities, and Apostles are all paid the same, but comparatively modest salaries. Nobody is getting rich off of tithing money.
@Kowfm Without audited financials, these numbers are not useful. No income statement or balance sheet that includes all income, expense, assets, and liabilities, and we don't even know how, or with whom, that money is spent. Also, by assuming that $7B comes out of savings, you're ignoring tithing and investment income and God knows what else.
@barryparr Well you can find them if you'd like.
I don't think $7B comes out of savings, I think their annual budget is around $7B. They probably receive most of that as tithing each year anyways.
Doing an in depth dive into the finances of the LDS church is not on my list of things to do today.
My primary argument is that the investment account is seen as a bad thing, or illegal, which is silly. Having savings is what we're supposed to have. Why not a church?
@Kowfm You went into this with the primary argument that the church was spending billions on charity, which turned out to be false.
Then you said that Ensign Peak would cover barely 20 years of operations. Which is also not true. EP appears to be pulling in something like $10B/yr in investment income, which is a lot more than the $7B/yr that you say is the church's cost of operations - which EP doesn't even pay for.
@Kowfm I'm saying there's something wrong about a tax-exempt organization hoarding more than $100B in secret and not paying taxes that were due on its investment income.
I'm surprised you don't agree with that.
@Kowfm I'm also saying that at this point that we can't trust LDS statements about their finances that have not been independently audited. But I don't think you'd agree with that.
@barryparr no I agree. Probably don’t put your trust 100% into statements you can’t verify.
They should probably do a large audit and publish the results.
I think a large concern is they don’t want people to think that church leadership are making investment divisions. Which they aren’t. Hence the reason for EP in the first place.
@barryparr oh for sure they should pay taxes on the income. But that’s a question of legality.
The tax rules should really be changed to make stuff like this less possible.