Mastodawn

Player One May 8, 2023

Panos Damelos (on vacation!)

OK, let me try something.

Hello @Gargron! It’s the first time I’m addressing you, so let me first of all say a big THANK YOU for your contribution to the #Fediverse! The reason I’m writing this is that I saw that @mastodon recently announced quote posts - I think that’s a great decision! As you probably know, #Misskey and #Calckey already have an implementation for quotes, where the quote appears under the original post (like a comment, but flagged as a quote), and where the original poster is notified when quoted.

I don’t know how you intend to implement this feature in Mastodon, but since our users interact with each other, I thought it would be a good idea to suggest some direct communication with @syuilo (who originally implemented this in #Misskey) and @kainoa (our lead dev at #calkey), to make sure our implementations will be compatible. Even if there are concerns and things that you’d prefer to be done differently, I think that they should be discussed, and #Misskey and #Calckey should consider adjusting their implementations, so that they interoperate seamlessly with yours. The idea is, let’s see if it’s possible to find a common way to do this, so that users have a smoother, safer and more consistent experience, on such a sensitive issue!

I think that the widest possible interoperability in the #Fediverse is to everyone’s benefit, and it gives a better experience for every #fedizen, no matter what platform they’re on. Let’s try to work closer together on common features or problems and find common solutions - we’ve got this.

blobbonedealwithit

Posting this publicly because I think that more cooperation between fedi platforms is something many people in here would love to see – myself included! Hoping this is received positively and in good faith. United fedi is best fedi =)

Dmitri | 🇺🇦May 8, 2023

@panos @kainoa @syuilo @Gargron Hi Panos, would it makes sense for the Calckey devs to do a writeup on how they're implemented Quote Posts, on somewhere like the FEP repo (https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep ), so that we can point implementers at it?

fep

Fediverse Enhancement Proposals

Codeberg.org

Kainoa May 8, 2023

@dmitri @[email protected] @syuilo @Gargron as Calckey was forked from Misskey, it probably should be their who does the write-up? In any case, it should attach quoteUri as fedibird:quoteUri, quoteUrl as as:quoteUrl, and/or _misskey_quote as as:quoteUrl.

Kainoa May 8, 2023

@dmitri @[email protected] @syuilo @Gargron *be their team

silverpill May 8, 2023

@dmitri @syuilo @kainoa @panos @Gargron We have a FEP that specifies "object links": https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/feps/fep-e232.md. Object link is a more generic concept than a quote, and can be used in other cases. AFAIK fep-e232 quotes are supported in FoundKey (also a fork of Misskey).

fep

Fediverse Enhancement Proposals

Codeberg.org

Dmitri | 🇺🇦May 8, 2023

@silverpill @syuilo @kainoa @panos @Gargron Ohhh nice, I like that.

Mr. Completely May 8, 2023

@panos @kainoa @syuilo @Gargron very cool thought. I was wondering, in those platforms, can you opt out of allowing quotes of your posts, either as an account setting and/or at the post level? Doing that, including the ability to do so retroactively, is another of the interesting ideas I've seen floated to mitigate some of the concerns around quoting. Just curious, I've been meaning to look into the *key apps but haven't had the time, so I should just know this but don't

Panos Damelos (on vacation!)May 8, 2023

@mrcompletely @[email protected] @syuilo @Gargron No, currently quotes are not opt-out. My personal opinion on this is that this should probably be addressed by visibility settings. If you make a public post, well... the same way someone could link to it, they can also embed it in their post (which is what a quote essentially is). We don't allow quoting non-public (followers only) posts, obviously.
However, if that's something Mastodon wants to do, perhaps we could talk about it and find a better way that would address all concerns. This is the idea behind the post, we already have this feature, Mastodon intends to implement it soon, so perhaps see if there's common ground and work on a more unified approach, that could offer more consistent experience for users among #fedi platforms. After all, our users all interact with each other, so it would be nice if a #quote worked similarly in #Mastodon, #Misskey, #Calckey, #Akkoma etc. I think it could help with addressing concerns and confusion about how others do it, who can do what etc.

Mr. Completely May 8, 2023

@panos @kainoa @syuilo @Gargron Makes sense. I do think there's a case to be made that "public but not quotable" is a valid distinction but it's not my case to make as I am not on the design team or actively engaged (as a professional software design/dev lead I have Thoughts but it's not my project and I am not under the impression everything needs my input). I do think your desire to coordinate the major points of feature design across federated platforms is a valid and well considered one.

Hughster May 8, 2023

@panos @kainoa @syuilo @Gargron "where the quote appears under the original post (like a comment, but flagged as a quote), and where the original poster is notified when quoted"

If you want to quote a post you should be able to do so discreetly without dragging the original author into it, just as when linking to any other webpage.

Making people think of quoting as "reply in front of my followers" instead was a big part of how QTs became misused for performative arguments, dunks and ratioing.

Panos Damelos (on vacation!)May 8, 2023

@hughster @[email protected] @syuilo @Gargron I don't doubt that was your experience on #Twitter, but to be honest, being daily for several months now on a #Fediverse platform that has this implementation, this doesn't reflect my experience here at all. Quotes are used with good intentions and under a positive mood most of the time, and for the times that they might not be (as with any feature, like new posts or replies), well, that's why we have moderation.

I think #Twitter actually encouraged toxic behaviour. It's not the feature that's at fault, it's a specific moderation policy.

Hughster May 8, 2023

@panos OK, but with every respect to you and your amazing work, you only have the tiniest fraction of the number of users Twitter does and they'll mostly be tech-orientated. You can't know how more mainstream users would use it. The only safe assumption is that they would use it the exact same way they used it before.

No amount of moderation can prevent the toxic misuse of "public reply" QTs, because almost all of the time what's said doesn't contravene any abusive conduct rules.

Panos Damelos (on vacation!)May 9, 2023

@hughster Exactly the same can be said for possible toxic misuse of actual "public replies" though. If someone wants to write a harsh comment, they will just do it in a reply, even if they don't have the ability to quote. They can also boost their reply afterwards, for their followers to see. This is why we notify users when they are quoted, so that it isn't perceived as "behind the OP's back/say anything". In practice it isn't indeed that different from a reply, both displayed under the original thread, for both the OP gets a notification. So if you find this behaviour problematic, then I think that it should probably apply to replies too.

Hughster May 9, 2023

@panos I don't think replying+boosting really works the same in practice, because a reply doesn't show the original post that's being criticised and so the criticism won't make sense on its own. You could also do it on Twitter since the start but nobody ever did, and nobody does it on Masto either.

It should be anyone's right to talk about another post behind the author's back! We can do it when we're criticising opinions in newspaper articles or blogs without bothering the authors after all.

Christopher May 9, 2023

@panos
Yeah. It's a platform that milked a fascist, white supremacist president for media coverage and ad views, and which used an engagement algorithm to highlight and promote posts that specifically drove people to post and stay scrolling for longer and longer periods of time. They were financially motivated to promote toxic behaviour.

The posting technology always gets the blame, because that's what people could see, but it's like blaming a heart attack on vigorous exercise when you've spent 30 years eating a diet primarily consisting on Trans fats and bovine growth hormones.
@hughster @kainoa @syuilo @Gargron

Natasha Jay 🏳️‍⚧️

[calckey test] May 9, 2023

@panos @hughster @[email protected] @syuilo @Gargron

I don't see Quotes as inherently evil, even having been on the sharp end of this as #trans on Twitter. And it can be sharp but

1. Bad actors are bad (period), worst case they will screen shot and develop any narrative they want

2. It's the ease of Quotes that can make it an easy tool to use negatively (trying to avoid saying 'weaponised' here btw)

3. On Mastodon I can and do Quote people anyway via a link. And as a courtesy I always include the original poster in the QT (Yes - I like the Etiquette culture in #Mastodon)

4. And in the #Fediverse I have found admins and moderators fast and responsive ... even when I was on a larger server mas.to last year. So they are part of this picture too

I see this as a granular design discussion including #Calckey, which it would be nice to see future alignment on. For example -

- Does everyone want to allow their public posts to be auto-Quoted? Opt-in or Opt-out?
- If yes, do I want to be notified if auto-Quoted? (for me always a big yes personally)
- Could granular design/control principles be designed and built at a per-User level, or even at a per-Post level, along these kind of lines?

I don't want to try and solve it in this thread
=> just to put up some views which may shed light 💡 rather than heat 🔥 with a view to also encouraging a "pull-together" design collaboration