Computations or processes - how do you think about the building blocks of the brain?

Returning to a book chapter by @knutson_brain that I appreciate (and endorse!). One take-home is that there are two different ways of thinking about the brain/mind: one that emphasizes "computations or algorithms" (like learning rules or building up object detectors for seeing) and the other that emphasizes "processes" (like motivation and aversion for studying feeling, emotion, attachment, and mood).
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-27473-3_7

Building on these ideas, I see how these differences lead to different ideas about the problem that needs to be solved. Both approaches consider levels of explanation, but think about them differently.

The approach that uses computations/algorithms emphasizes these as the bridge between the brain's biology and the brain's function. Documenting that the brain has face detectors does not tell you how to build one; you need to understand the brain's algorithm.

The approach that uses processes typically thinks about levels as levels of scale: genes>molecules>cells>circuits>behavior>self reports (as described by the NIHM RDoC project). But where are the processes? Those aren't levels; insofar as levels are rows, processes are columns (see attached picture). In other words, processes are NOT links between biology and behavior but instead the thing to be explained at different levels. This matrix has always bothered me - it's seems off. Now I see why:

@knutson_brain's proposal is that processes should be regarded as a link between behavior and biology. Absolutely! I think this implies that the RDoC matrix is misguided (or minimally we should not consider it as depicting "levels of explanation") but I'll let him comment 😉​.

Toward a Deep Science of Affect and Motivation

We propose a “deep science” approach that can link neural, affective, and motivational levels of analysis. Recent neuroimaging research has linked neural activity to anticipatory affective experience (i.e., in the Nucleus Accumbens or NAcc to positive...

SpringerLink
@NicoleCRust You have seen our point more clearly than we have! Yes, one way to progress may be to forge "deep" links across levels by specifying processes (this could be represented with algorithms). For example, increasing postsynaptic NAcc D1 agonism should increase positive aroused feelings, which promote approach behavior...

@knutson_brain
Your paper and this conversation have really helped me understand these issues and I am grateful.

I really like to notion that the goal is Deep (multilevel) science. I see parallels with Interactionist Neuroscience, which focuses on the difficulty of achieving that (as does your paper). The industry forces seem to me to disincentive it - do you agree? This aspect of brain research culture impedes progress.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627315008879

@NicoleCRust @knutson_brain

I keep coming back to this thread about levels, along with others on the related issue of paradigms, as those have long been major questions for me. I am trying to clarify my current understanding for a blog post. It will start out a bit like this —

A certain amount of “level” language is natural in the sciences but “level” metaphors come with hidden assumptions about higher and lower places in hierarchies which don’t always fit the case at hand. In complex cases what look at first like parallel strata may in time be better comprehended as intersecting domains or mutually recursive and entangled orders of being. When that happens we can guard against misleading imagery by speaking of domains or realms instead of levels.

To be continued …

@NicoleCRust @knutson_brain

Here's the beginning of a prospective blog series I started … this topic interacts strongly with a host of others I've been struggling to articulate over the years …

Inquiry Into Inquiry • Discussion 6
https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2023/04/30/inquiry-into-inquiry-discussion-6/

Re: Nicole Rust
https://mathstodon.xyz/@NicoleCRust@neuromatch.social/110197230713039748

❝Computations or Processes —
How do you think about the building blocks of the brain?❞

I keep coming back to this thread about levels, along with others on the related issue of paradigms, as those have long been major questions for me. I am trying to clarify my current understanding for a blog post. It will start out a bit like this —

A certain amount of “level” language is natural in the sciences but “level” metaphors come with hidden assumptions about higher and lower places in hierarchies which don't always fit the case at hand. In complex cases what look at first like parallel strata may in time be better comprehended as intersecting domains or mutually recursive and entangled orders of being. When that happens we can guard against misleading imagery by speaking of domains or realms instead of levels.

To be continued …

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#Inquiry #InquiryDrivenSystem #InquiryIntoInquiry #NeuralNetwork
#Semiotics #RelationTheory #SignRelation #TriadicRelation #Model
#ObjectiveReality #MathematicalStructure #SymbolicRepresentation

Inquiry Into Inquiry • Discussion 6

Re: Mathstodon • Nicole Rust NR: Computations or Processes — How do you think about the building blocks of the brain? I keep coming back to this thread about levels, along with others on…

Inquiry Into Inquiry