Mastodawn

Adrian Roselli, pH0 Apr 17, 2023

2/2

Those four patterns are generally safe, too (button, link, alert, radiogroup).

However, the AT support tables:
• are all listed as “Unapproved Report”;
• only list desktop browsers/SRs;
• do not include Firefox.

So, IMO, worth asking for input but not calling a win.

Adrian Roselli, pH0 Apr 18, 2023

3/2
I agree with Eric:
https://yatil.social/@yatil/110218482529480904

Not super useful as a go / no-go.

Eric Eggert (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] I like how those tables are made for people who already know, too. “Toggle buttons are supported 63% in Safari/VO macOS.” is effectively non-information for implementers. It does not answer the question of “can I use this pattern?” (And of course you might not even want to use some of the patterns over native HTML or hybrid solutions.)

yatil.social

Adrian Roselli, pH0 Apr 18, 2023

4/2

Not a “sea change”. That statement is pure hyperbole.

It is literally a year too late (4 SRs & 1 browser short) for something that announced it was an accessible pattern library (which it is not) last GAAD.

• https://w3c.social/@w3c/110220013802529659
• https://twitter.com/w3c/status/1648315190373433345

*grumble*

World Wide Web Consortium (@[email protected])

W3C blog: "Answering 'What ARIA can I use?'" by Matthew King “Assistive Technology Support” tables in the ARIA Authoring Practices Guide show how 3 screen readers support 4 UI pattern implementations represents a sea change in accessibility engineering https://www.w3.org/blog/2023/04/answering-what-aria-can-i-use/

w3c.social

Adrian Roselli, pH0 Apr 28, 2023

5/2

I missed this other write-up:
“‘Can I Use…’, but for ARIA!”
https://bocoup.com/blog/can-i-use-but-for-aria

How is knowing NVDA 2021.3.5 (two years old) supports something at 96% useful? Does the 4% the mean no keyboards?

What about my NVDA 2023.1.0.27913? Or that I use it with Firefox?

‘Can I Use…’, but for ARIA! - Bocoup

Web Platform Consulting Services

Eric Eggert Apr 28, 2023

@aardrian I want to tear everything down. This is so useless. Nobody understands why Can I Use? is useful and beloved. (Hint: It’s because you get Yes/No answers. Not 96%. “Can I eat this?” – “96%” – “Yeah, maybe not.”)

ARGH.

Adrian Roselli, pH0 Apr 28, 2023

@yatil I would not mind if these announcements were framed better. Essentially, “Hey, we are finally trying to gather some limited notes on support.”

Eric Eggert Apr 28, 2023

@aardrian Yeah. Or if there was a summary like “For most use cases the button role is well supported, just be aware of X.” But just saying X out of Y tests work is not useful. And then sell it as if they just invented sliced bread.

@yatil @aardrian it's infuriatingly pointless. i don't doubt that whoever was involved with it worked really hard or whatever, but yes the conclusions/framing of results is supremely pointless. why not actually present it like ... caniuse do for browsers? instead of fucking numberwang https://youtu.be/0obMRztklqU

Numberwang Episode 1

YouTube

Patrick H. Lauke

@yatil @aardrian is this supported in browser X with AT Y? yes, no, partial - and for partial, clearly list what currently fails/is missing. it's not rocket science

@yatil @aardrian just expand the approach and presentation of https://a11ysupport.io/ basically...

Accessibility Support

@patrick_h_lauke @aardrian Yeah, that’s so much more useful. The other information that can I use has are links to tutorials, work-arounds and polyfills. So it also answers the question “it’s not supported in all browsers, what can I do to start using it now and make it work everywhere.”

@patrick_h_lauke @aardrian A lot of that has to do with the W3C mantra of “vendor neutrality”. They are just not allowed to show preference or that one browser/screen reader/tool is better than another. That is why the “Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools List” lists everything and puts the onus on visitors to make distinction based on data. It’s essentially useless.

@yatil @aardrian wonder if it's worth me just crafting a diplomatically worded (HAH) issue on their github repo...just to at least put it down "on paper" how currently the resource is less than ideal and what would *actually* help authors. sure, it'll be ignored or "we'll look into it at some point" ... but at least it's there for reference

@patrick_h_lauke @aardrian I mean, you can try. I have given up, to be honest.

@yatil @aardrian just to put it on record...i think i might. then in future i don't have to repeat myself and just point to the issue (like i do with most #WCAG things that are borked...sigh)

Adrian Roselli, pH0 Apr 29, 2023

@patrick_h_lauke @yatil Can you link it here when you do? I am partway through a blog post putting a stake in the ground that this resource is not what they are advertising.

@aardrian @patrick_h_lauke Ah, I guess I can then check off my todo. 😜

Adrian Roselli, pH0 Apr 29, 2023

@yatil
Meh. We may have different approaches. Mine will not be done today anyway; gotta get to a book fair!
@patrick_h_lauke

@aardrian @patrick_h_lauke Oh, mine is under someday because it’s Snooker World Championship! Priorities!

Hidde Apr 29, 2023

@patrick_h_lauke @yatil @aardrian please do!

For me the most important goal would be that a web developer can easily find and understand if they should or should not use a pattern. Not because they deserve an easier life or anything, more because it would make it less likely they do right things (as in build accessible/accesssibility supported UIs)

Adrian Roselli, pH0 Apr 29, 2023

@hdv
I maintain that if the support charts are robust and accurate they will help keep devs from implementing many of the APG patterns as written.
@patrick_h_lauke @yatil

Hidde Apr 29, 2023

@aardrian @patrick_h_lauke @yatil yep and that's a good thing!

@hdv @aardrian @patrick_h_lauke It’s probably a bit of too much of a conspiracy theory, but the reason that this testing takes so long might be that it would show how few of the “patterns” are properly supported…