Mastodawn

Charlotte Clymer Apr 14, 2023

Defending Nazi memorabilia or artifacts or whatever the hell by citing an “appreciation for history” rings hollow when you spend your free time at school board meetings screaming at teachers for having the audacity to teach your white child about American slavery and Jim Crow.

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@charlotteclymer
I would make a distinction.
Publicly accessible museums -- or even collections of artifacts and manuscripts which are accessible only to qualified scholars and experts -- can provide us with valuable insights into the past -- especially those aspects of the past we'd prefer to forget.
The distinction lies not so much in the things or the collections of things but in the attitudes towards and disposition of them, of the place they hold in the larger system of public thought.

Wesley Faulkner Apr 14, 2023

@baslow @charlotteclymer I believe the distinction is that she's talking about an individual and their choices and actions.

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@wesley83 @charlotteclymer
No, I understand, but our posts are global and last far longer than the immediate context. Encountered by someone a few days from now, the context of this post may be obscure or lost. This is simply me, popping up randomly, to remind people I deem to be conscientious actors that what we say here is more like a worldwide radio broadcast than it is like a tete-a-tete in a salon. It is in the interest of forces of division that we forget that...

Wesley Faulkner

@baslow @charlotteclymer I'm sorry but I don't understand. The toot was clear to me without any external context. Are you concerned that someone would read it and think what? That Nazi stuff should be destroyed? Is that where your head is at?

Can you clarify what ill you were trying to avoid?

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@wesley83 @charlotteclymer
The original post equates "memorobilia" with "artifacts". I am maintaining that the terms need to considered distinguishable. It is only within a particular context of someone making a particular claim that the terms might, in the moment, be considered to denote the same things.
The Museum of Natural History displays items which may properly be deemed "artifacts" but not so much "memorabilia".

arceuthobium Apr 15, 2023

@baslow @wesley83 @charlotteclymer all (contemporary) memorabilia are artifacts but not all artifacts are memorabilia. Nazi propaganda is just as historically significant as any other Nazi product.

Nicole Parsons Apr 14, 2023

@wesley83 @baslow @charlotteclymer

Why is this tactic of hair splitting over the definition of terms so often used?

It redirects the conversation into the weeds. Red herring derailment of the point. Discussion of irrelevant minutiae instead of the whole.

I don't care about the difference between "memorabilia" or "artifact".

I care about a Supreme Court Justice taking bribes from a billionaire. A billionaire who thinks Nazi statues are "cool".

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@Npars01 @wesley83 @charlotteclymer
An examination of my most recent posts, as well as a much longer string, from two different accounts. hashtagged #SeizeTheMeansOfCommunity, will help you understand where I'm coming from generally and my qualms about trying to discuss these matters in the microblogging format in particular.
I am not disagreeing with what I take to be the substance of what was posted but we clearly differ on refinements of expression.
Such is the world.

Wesley Faulkner Apr 14, 2023

@baslow @Npars01 @charlotteclymer Thank you for the recommendation to look into that hashtag. I'll get to researching.

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@wesley83 @Npars01 @charlotteclymer
I truly believe we will make much more progress in solving real-world problems if we can collectively form self-run communities of discourse which, by enabling richer and more deliberative forms of interaction, can tear us away from the "drive-by" community encouraged by those forces intent on harvesting (and using against us) the data we provide in our less-guarded, on-the-fly cries of pain, anger, and even joy.

joe Apr 14, 2023

@baslow @wesley83 @Npars01 @charlotteclymer couldn't you just discuss the original post, and if something seems unclear ask the original context?

You've got a few replies in here but you're not really talking to the original point whatsoever.

It's just muddying the water for a hypothetical situation that may never arise.

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@Smokinjoe @wesley83 @Npars01 @charlotteclymer
When you are publicly visible on the internet you are *never doing just one thing* however much you want to focus on just one aspect. You focus on a conversation among like-minded people but, because public, your posts are observable by others and can even be fed into giant databases designed to control your interaction with the internet.
I am trying to raise consciousness of that fact...and suggest refinements and alternatives.

joe Apr 14, 2023

@baslow pee pee poo poo

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@Smokinjoe
I see I must bow to your superior appreciation of the value of collective, deliberative discourse.
Against such elevated argument, what response?

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@Smokinjoe @wesley83 @Npars01 @charlotteclymer
This is actually true of all human social life, particularly, and animal social life, generally.
You can't just walk across the street...you can't, e.g., adopt a Pythonian, Ministry-of-Silly-Walks mode of walking, without drawing (possibly negative) evaluative attention.
Erving Goffman's "Behavior In Public Places" (and subsequent work) was all about this.

Nicole Parsons Apr 14, 2023

@baslow @Smokinjoe @wesley83 @charlotteclymer

Again, good points, but you're hijacking a discussion about Clarence Thomas's public corruption to discuss...something else.

Non sequiturs aren't helpful. It's not amplifying the core message about judicial corruption. Some may misconstrue this as coat tailing.

Please stay on topic or perhaps start a different threat to discuss these side issues.

They are worthy of exploration but not on this particular thread.

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@Npars01 @Smokinjoe @wesley83 @charlotteclymer

Hijacking how? What prevents this thread from being a single trunk with many branches?

Nicole Parsons Apr 14, 2023

@baslow @Smokinjoe @wesley83 @charlotteclymer

May I recommend a book?

The Oxford Dictionary of Social Media.

It describes terms such a sea lioning, spreading, firehosing, coat tailing, signal-to-noise ratio, Gish Gallop, and sock puppeting. These are all techniques and tactics used to divert & derail discussions on social media.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780191803093.001.0001/acref-9780191803093;jsessionid=8BA733EBF5B3C51F52FDE6F36B7B0F01

@Npars01 @baslow @Smokinjoe @wesley83 @charlotteclymer The link throws a 503 error for me.

joe Apr 14, 2023

@Npars01 @baslow This is awesome! Great share!

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@Npars01 @Smokinjoe @wesley83 @charlotteclymer

A survey of recent comments would seem to indicate that there are plenty of people who have posted, undeterred, responses to the OP. They have simply ignored what I said. My comments have in no way prevented a discussion on the points first made from taking place.
So how do my comments constitute a "derailment" except to those who are easily distracted?

joe Apr 14, 2023

@baslow @Npars01

those who are easily distracted deserve better treatment than reading your posts

please be mindful and stop derailing threads for the love of all that is holy

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@Smokinjoe @Npars01

A mission statement from the past: https://asorrybowl.blog/what-im-going-to-be-when-i-grow-up

In evaluating it, you might want to refresh your memory on Socrates' modus operandi.

What I'm Going To Be When I Grow Up

At various times in my life I aspired to be: an expert a teacher a writer a chacham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakham) a thought lea...

A Sorry Bowl

Nicole Parsons Apr 14, 2023

Thanks for the book recommendation on Erving Goffman, by the way.

His books explain the puzzling insistence on "back-to-the-office" coercion during a pandemic.

(((Baslow)))Apr 14, 2023

@wesley83 @Npars01 @charlotteclymer
The posts I characterize as "drive-by community" and "verbal paintball" provide a *LOT* of the material on which extractive, biased language models, the bases of questionable forms of AI are built. I believe that deeply embedding such forms of interaction in their algorithms serve the interests of fragmentation and stereotype, the better to sell to us while discouraging collective response and resistance.

Nicole Parsons Apr 14, 2023

@baslow @wesley83 @charlotteclymer

I agree that word choice is important in malign influence campaigns.

Mass media often chooses overly anodyne language to describe the horrific.

Far right messaging chooses wording to elicit strong emotional responses.

Republican political narratives display devilish ingenuity in developing negative connotations for common words.

Examples: "Pro-Life" meaning valuing life, but only during gestation

"Freedom" meaning valuing prerogatives of the rich

My Blue Check is MIA Apr 14, 2023

@Npars01 @baslow @wesley83 @charlotteclymer Last sentence. Spot on

sweatshirt Apr 14, 2023

@Npars01 @wesley83 @baslow @charlotteclymer agreed lol