Mastodawn

Peaceful Waters Mar 12, 2023

RESEARCH POLL #207

A year out, when the Fediverse is everywhere among business, government, family, school and friends, will you always be comfortable with things like: 1) contacting and discussing personal matters, 2) reaching out to agencies for help, or 3) yammering about a weird interest or hobby in front of your entire social graph of followers? Or will you prolly do what many on Twitter did: use another account just for things you don't want to over-share with your main social network?

I'd want a less-public account for ONLY this.

16.7%

I'd want a less-public account for MANY reasons.

51.8%

Meh. No-issue. I have no secrets—from anyone!

31.5%

Poll ended at Mar 19, 2023 at 8:55pm.

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

I was kinda hoping this question would get people's interest. It's a very important one for several reasons, so please boost it for your friends to answer, as well?

Alan Martello Mar 13, 2023

@shoq I want personas that I can easily switch between - the cousin of Google’s Circles. I can approximate some of it with multiple accounts and the ability to create private groups (for family, work, neighbors, etc.) provided group admin is easy and comprehensive.

It turns out once more people you know are here, the more this feature is needed as I don’t want to overlap my D&D group with knitting or gardening or neighbors or axe throwing or craft brewing or high school reunion.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@amart That's similar to the topic filtering @davidslifka wants. But again, totally different issues. We need that anyway, :)

Third spruce tree on the left Mar 13, 2023

@shoq @amart @davidslifka Well. Can not one accomplish all this with:

- multiple masto accounts
- a masto client that can rapid switch between accounts (I use #elk and it can do this).
- use lists to "sub in" to content you wanna see in each personae?

Alan Martello Mar 13, 2023

@tezoatlipoca @shoq @davidslifka The issue is whether some single Fediverse login can be a social media client that can handle both public conversations and private invite only groups.

I’m fine with it not being Mastodon *provided* I can login once and access the other infrastructure platforms. I’m certain clients will come that make it seamless for me.

Ideally I’d have one Fediverse login and many handles each with its own visibility defaults.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@amart The is not which circle you choose to run in, but rather, who you are in those circles,

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@amart Personas are not the same as identity. Shoq is one of my personas. But it's not my identity.

Alan Martello Mar 13, 2023

@shoq Agreed, but people casually talking about social media often don’t differentiate between the two. A clear, concise and understandable language is needed for this since the implications for personal privacy and safety and real.

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

This is a bigger issue than many contemplate at this early stage of fedi evolution. Twitter, Facebook and Tiktok were never going to be the default communications network for the planet. But the fediverse may well become that. And sooner than later. I'm trying to get a jump on some of the downstream issues that I think are inevitable.

Coach Pāṇini ®Mar 12, 2023

@shoq “default communications networks” are like politics. They are downstream from culture.

Sue Strong Mar 17, 2023

@shoq back before Facebook there were blogs, more individual and creative. But now blogs can become part of the #Fediverse which might spark more creativity. Problems with both Facebook and Twitter monetizing our data and allowing it to end up in enemy hands, TikTok too as everything in Chinese app/company accessible to CCP. Algorithms too which helped radicalize people, lead to insurrection. What Twitter had that Facebook didn’t was support. All gone thanks to Elon. Blocking better here.

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

Not to skew the results any, but please think carefully before you choose option 3 here. Can you really think of nothing in your home, work, civic, financial, medical, education, or spiritual life, that you'd have no reservations about being so public about? None?

@[email protected] has moved Mar 12, 2023

can't believe so many people are saying #3, have we learned NOTHING?!?

Olav Mar 12, 2023

@shoq I probably should have picked 'don't care' because truth is, there are plenty things I don't talk about on social media. My [current/recent] employer, the names of my kids, etc. Anything actually sensitive shouldn't be anywhere on social media. E2EE chat, email, etc are far more appropriate (and secure)

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

@olavf "Sensitive matters" are just one category things we might discuss. There's also simple courtesy issues like forcing your followers to mute your arguments over whether one brand of super glue works better than another, or whether your mom's dementia symptoms or bowel habits are better or worse than the norm.

David Slifka Mar 12, 2023

@shoq @olavf I’d love if software let people follow me for topic X but not Y, and I’d love to refine my follows similarly. But totally separate accounts seem like a not-great implementation of this need, I think?

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@davidslifka @olavf

It's not, for that need. (But that's actually something I want to want to prototype, too. ) But it's an entirely different issue. I don't want to even think about who is following me or what topics are in or out of bounds, when I simply want engage anyone or anything about things I don't feel are appropriate (or necessary) to share. There is nothing wrong with boundaries, and this costs no one anything. It's zero-sum, for the end user. Their followers are unaffected.

Olav Mar 13, 2023

@davidslifka
@shoq with the caveat that my food website federates new recipes (only, no blog) and v3 photography website will federate it's blog when ready, partitioning social media down to minutiae only sows confusion except for particular things like professional vs personal, and exclusive content like only talking about adhesives. But a personal account can be expected to cover all those things too, at least on a limited basis.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@olavf @davidslifka It doesn't matter why you may or may not need one. It only matters that you might, on any occasion, need or want one. I maintain that most of us already have at least one anyway, even if it's rarely admitted. I'm not speaking of sock puppets here. Merely keeping our lives compartmentalized. I don't need someone's judgments about my politics, if they mostly follow me for inventions, and vice versa. Nor do I want to explain my choices to a crowd. Nor should anyone have to.

Olav Mar 13, 2023

@shoq @davidslifka don't get me wrong ~ I definitely see the need for keeping advocacy separate in circumstances, especially where it can affect employment, etc. But for most people, a generic account is all they need.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@olavf Are these we are using "generic accounts," in your view?

Olav Mar 13, 2023

@shoq "general" would be a better term, and at least mine is. Here I post anything from MH advocacy to the occasional shitpost. But I guess you're right in that I'm moving towards creating an entire instance devoted to shitposts.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@olavf Excellent example. We all have our lanes, boundaries, and preferences. As a technologist, I want to recognize and empower choices whenever possible.

Olav Mar 13, 2023

@shoq if it explains anything, the shitpost community would be almost entirely current and former Farkers.
It's on hold waiting for either Mastodon to support 'groups' or a managed Frendica host for the same reason.
Which solves a lot of problems, but what we both want is Hubzilla's "personas" that has finite control down to the account descriptions people can see. Alas.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@olavf Yes, Hubzilla was really appealing because of that. He clearly understands my points. Sidebar: And yes, as I have said before, I think instances won't be a thing much longer; groups will be. The question is, who pays for the servers if there's a breakdown of "community" value. But even groups require identity,. The basic problem is still the same. WHO chooses to reveal what to a group. It must be a choice.

Olav Mar 13, 2023

@shoq large, centralized instances are bad. Not just hardware, or moderation, but increasing regulatory requirements.

Plus, done right a small/medium instance has a community in the "home" feed. Presumably you'd pick one based on primary interest (mine is currently space-related) and expand from there. Groups otoh don't require being on a single instance, but I don't know if they can transfer ownership. The instance I have in mind would allow for transfer of ownership.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@olavf Some do. But that's a detail and fixable anyway. We're discussing things conceptually right now.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@davidslifka @olavf Maybe I spent too many years being politically active, but in my circles, anonymous or second identities are more the norm than the exception. So I have trouble wrapping my head around why anyone would want to not have opt-in anonymous or secondary social identities for any reason. And that's before we get to workplace issues, where MOST people I've ever known are at least somewhat fearful that their social media will impact their professional lives, status, or opportunity.

Mike Macgirvin Mar 12, 2023

We implemented Google+ style "collections" at one point to provide this, but I stopped supporting this about a year ago due to lack of interest. It was a lot of code to maintain given that nobody cared. Most people I spoke with tended to prefer the total isolation of separate channels. Note this is not separate accounts because in our software you can control multiple fediverse channels with one login account.

Steve M.Mar 12, 2023

@shoq There are many things in my life I wouldn't want to be fully public about. But my solution is not to bring them up here (or, in the past, on Twitter).

Tim Richards Mar 12, 2023

@shoq Surely you could also choose not to share that stuff online at all.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@timrichards As individuals, we can choose to do many things. But that's not a measure or prediction of collective behavior. Look at the poll results. It's telling a story,

Tim Richards Mar 13, 2023

@shoq Sure but I'm just saying that's a choice that's not really represented in the poll - having one account for online, and keeping deeply personal stuff offline.

David Ross Mar 13, 2023

@shoq I think what drives me towards option 3 is that I don't/didn't use social media for examples 1-3 as it is, so I couldn't see myself being publicly-social enough to need a second account.

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

I learned everything about composing poll questions from watching @evan for 6 months :)

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

I tried to steer this poll away from the pure privacy issues, because I thought that was pretty intuitively a given with most people. I may have to reevaluate that.

Shoq 🌿Mar 21, 2023

The numbers stayed almost identical for the life of the poll. Never seen that happen before.

Rufus J. Cooter Mar 12, 2023

@shoq Yeah, I mean, I love my job, think the world of the folk I work with, it's mostly a top-notch, A-1 organization, but the 'social media' policy amounts to, 'don't do anything online that'd make us look bad.'

[dog cocks head at a 33° angle, with a quizzical expression on face dot gif]

'we'll know it when we see it.'

And so, I use a pseudonym.

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

@RufusJCooter Yes, I specifically avoided the workplace issue as I figured that's almost intuitive for most people and covered by the the "many reasons" choice.

LisPi Mar 12, 2023

@shoq Compartmentalizing aspects of your life to limit risk exposure is simply normal.

Not just one extra account though.

Gianmarco Gargiulo Mar 12, 2023

@shoq I don't want a social media protocol to become a chat protocol, I need proper conversation structures and end-to-end encryption, preferably just as federated.

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

@gianmarcogg03 I think I parse your meaning, but just to sure, which was your poll choice?

kechpaja Mar 12, 2023

@shoq I'm still not sure. I was never able to have an alt account on Twitter (I tried several times, but the new accounts were always blocked within minutes), so the idea that that's something I might do is still sinking in.

Third spruce tree on the left Mar 12, 2023

@shoq 3 -- The only reason I don't use my real name here or on Reddit (same uname) is if I say anything that someone (unreasonably, since Im usually quite respectful to anyone) takes issue with and comes to find me in real life. But apart from self-doxxing, there's nothing I wouldn't say here I wouldn't say to anyone in person in real life.

10 years from now when I'm Prime Minister Spruce Tree and some reporter correlates me to this account, Ill be "yep. I said all that" without concern.

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

@tezoatlipoca So, you'd wouldn't think twice about say, discussing your arthritis, constipation, or mental health issues with your physician in front of your followers? Or asking your trans kid's high school coach why he won't let her play? Or asking an accountant whether deducting the home office on your yacht was permitted or not?

Third spruce tree on the left Mar 12, 2023

@shoq There's always consideration for your audience, so if we're talking real life, then A: uh.. maybe not everywhere all the time. Time and place.

But to my followers on socials, I'd talk about arthritis, constipation meds, struggles with alcohol (I'm better now), abusive BPD ex-wife etc. I find talking about things (w/ anyone who'll listen) cathartic. They, might find it helpful. Your friends/followers on socials have opted-in. If your problems aren't for them, they can opt-out.

Third spruce tree on the left Mar 12, 2023

@shoq *Dude, I like that spruce tree fella, he's super smart and usually I like what he has to say, but he talks about his arthritis all the time, so I just filter out that keyword.*

Shoq 🌿Mar 12, 2023

@tezoatlipoca Of course, that's a personal choice to make. I wouldn't make it, nor would many others. To cite a private example given me, "I've ordered a rental car via twitter." Sure, but would you go back and forth with Hertz about whether their vomit cleaning fee was justified, or in my case, would I want my Breitbartnews enemies knowing where I rent my vehicles? No, I would not. There are countless examples.

Third spruce tree on the left Mar 12, 2023

@shoq Comes down to how much personal life identifying you share in any forum. The people you interact with in real life have the advantage of knowing the Real You context. Of course Spruce lives in Philly, I work with him at Company IN Philly.

So if I say I live in Philly on *here* and I say I had an argument over the vomit cleaning fee w/ the Avis agent at the airport yesterday afternoon, well that narrows it down to either Susan or Joe. So I don't say where and when for anything.

Kansas Grant Mar 12, 2023

@shoq I chose the last one because this anonymous account has no secrets. ;-)

Ted Garrison Mar 12, 2023

@shoq I went with #3 b/c I don't want to have to deal with multiple accounts. I much prefer that I'm simply able to compartmentalize communication (Public/Friends/GroupA/GroupB/etc) as I desire.

PJD65 Mar 12, 2023

@shoq I have 3 Twitter, 2 Instagram, 2 Facebook and 5 emails. It seems likely I would eventually have more than 1 of any other system that I use on a regular basis. So far I only have 1 mastodon, but I expect that will change as people I know eventually join the network .

Tim Richards Mar 12, 2023

@PJD65 @shoq Why do you need that many? Multiple personalities? ;)

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@timrichards @PJD65

Which one of us should answer this?

PJD65 Mar 13, 2023

@timrichards @shoq LOL - not really, but different identities that don't need to mix. I have a twitter & and email that are solely, 100% work related. I have an account at each that is for "fandom" stuff. My friends and family aren't interested in seeing my love of Disney parks or Adam Lambert on a daily basis! Another account is mostly for family & friends and things where my real life identity is important. So nothing all that earth-shaking, but it is convenient to keep these separate.

Christmas Baking Mar 13, 2023

@shoq This IS my less personal account to 1) be a happy space to discuss baking and food and 2) pretend I'm just a normal person (hah! I'm really a nerd!)

But my personal account, while nerdy and political and occasionally bitchy, doesn't talk about things I wouldn't bring up in conversation with colleagues or family.

Shoq 🌿Mar 13, 2023

@ChristmasBaking Which I think is how most people really feel, when not invested in answering a poll question :) .

Dendan Setia (Nins)Mar 13, 2023

@shoq
I really wish the g+ circles or livejournal tiers of friends-only visibility becomes possible on masto and its forks. That would make much of this very attractive to me, while balancing my own personal need for search (of at least my own posts and boosts!)

Appagal Crochet Mar 13, 2023

@shoq Sadly the answers to choose are not fully revealed making it hard for people to properly choose. Might want to fully disclose the answers in the main text for answers to properly align with what their answers would reflect.