Laurie VossFeb 11, 2023
You're not stupid for using a framework, and nobody has pulled a fast one on you. https://seldo.com/posts/the_case_for_frameworks
The case for frameworks

Today I read Alex Russell's post The Market for Lemons and I found myself compelled to write a rebuttal. I am a big fan of Alex's work in general but not of this post in particular, which is very long, so allow me to attempt to summarize it

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023

@seldo economics indeed but the changing storyline is also well documented (yes that's grifting!)

And also ppl need to know how HTML/etc work in order to use React not the other way around.

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux I do not think everybody is using React because Guillermo is just really, really persuasive.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux You're stating this like it's facially ridiculous, but I don't see why it is. "Persuasive" not just meaning personally persuasive, but persuasive with the backing and credibility of Facebook? This does not seem particularly far-fetched.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@agocke @brianleroux Millions and million of developers are using React. In surveys I run they report high satisfaction with React. They're not just using it because they were impressed with it, or because somebody told them to. Developers really like React, and I have thousands of data points to prove it.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux Fair enough, but I think it's a point you have to argue with data! Not immediately obvious.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@agocke @seldo I didn't see the part where anyone was debating devs like it or use it.

The points made by Alex and others are concerned with the poor outputs and the advocates changing their stories. (See your colleagues Zach's post about React criticism for ex.)

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @agocke The flaw in Alex's argument is that he focuses only on the (admittedly bad!) results React gets for low-power mobile devices. My point is that developers are not *unaware* of the bad outcomes, they like React *despite* the bad outcomes, so let's look at why. The idea that developers  cannot see that bad outcomes, poor creatures, only Alex can, is why the whole thing comes off as insulting.
Show threadLaurie Voss
@brianleroux @agocke We, the developers of the world, are aware that we are making a trade-off and we are making it anyway, so continuing to yell at us that the trade-offs we knowingly made were bad is not going to do anything but get us annoyed. We KNOW.
Feb 12, 2023 at 3:58pmWeb
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @agocke so are we supposed to pretend it's good and bad web experiences are good for consumers?
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @agocke Did you read my post? I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying the bad outcome we're looking at is the inevitable outcome of capitalism. We don't have to like it, but it's impossible to avoid.
Show threadPaul McBrideFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @seldo @agocke I think @seldo is saying that shaming developers or treating like they don’t know what they are doing doesn’t make things any better for consumers either.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@ThePaulMcBride @brianleroux @agocke Exactly. Our energy would be better spent meeting them where they are -- using frameworks by the millions, making rich apps -- and reduce the harm by making the frameworks better. Write something they like *better* than React rather than just telling them it's bad.
Show threadPaul McBrideFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux @agocke fixing the perceived problems with React would be huge too. A lot of things will never be rewritten because it’ll be better for users. However upgrading to a new version of React or Next etc is usually much less work.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@ThePaulMcBride @seldo @agocke not having to upgrade because your shit is based on web standards is clearly better than spinning tyres on same functionality isn't it?
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@ThePaulMcBride @brianleroux @agocke Also agreed, and the people who make Next have made huge strides in improving accessibility and performance, so I'm not on board with calling them "bad actors" either. They too are doing their best.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke the static CSR is the only way to SSR narrative change is only one example but they definitely are trending in the right direction after years of gaslighting
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride @agocke We agree that they are slowly trending in the right direction. I just disagree that their marketing amounts to gaslighting.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke well they've attacked me directly and indirectly industry wide for saying things they now promote.

So that's absolutely my perspective!

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@ThePaulMcBride @seldo @agocke I agree w that and have said as much. I don't think the solution is excusing unprofessional outputs or toxic actors tho either
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride @agocke I think calling the outputs "unprofessional" is deeply condescending. A professional has looked at situation, made a tough trade-off, and the result is the output. It's deeply professional, in that it's a compromise made to satisfy every stakeholder to the best of their ability.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke respectfully disagree. If a site isn't accessible by default it's not professional.
Show threadErrataFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke the person who actually decides about whether something is accessible or not is usually not the developer. I agree it's unprofessional but it's the product owner who takes that responsibility, not the developer.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@errata @seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke I'm not even thinking about deeper a11y so much as really basic access like "page actually loads" not spinners and blank screens 😐
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride @agocke We're all just trying our best, Brian.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke that's great! Me too.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride well that's clearly not true. Thousands of devs were working hard on crypto garbage to knowingly scam people out of their life savings. Let's not assume everyone is in this profession for good reasons
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023

@brianleroux @agocke The fundamental point of disagreement between Alex and I is that he believes devs cannot possibly know how bad the outcomes are, or they wouldn't make these decisions, and I believe they do.

My position is easier to believe, because for Alex to be right everyone has to misunderstand the world *except* Alex, but for me to be right the only person misunderstanding the situation needs to be Alex.

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@seldo @agocke ok so everyone agrees the outputs are poor, and the web consumer experience is being damaged. That's good we agree at least.

Humiliating people is a poor way to convince them to change. I agree with that. Excusing it is also a poor way to affect change.

I try, and fail, to lead by example. I get a lot of toxic stuff thrown at me by smug fans gleeful in their changing storyline. What to do?

Show threadNicole SullivanFeb 12, 2023

@brianleroux @seldo @agocke It’s not the whole story, but I think we need to rethink what responsibility the browser has in all this.

Accessibility primitives need to exist that are side effect of building for the web, not an additional step devs need to take for an already marginalized audience. The economics just aren’t there for devs to do this individually on every site. (I am working on a few APIs that can help)