Laurie VossFeb 11, 2023
You're not stupid for using a framework, and nobody has pulled a fast one on you. https://seldo.com/posts/the_case_for_frameworks
The case for frameworks

Today I read Alex Russell's post The Market for Lemons and I found myself compelled to write a rebuttal. I am a big fan of Alex's work in general but not of this post in particular, which is very long, so allow me to attempt to summarize it

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023

@seldo economics indeed but the changing storyline is also well documented (yes that's grifting!)

And also ppl need to know how HTML/etc work in order to use React not the other way around.

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux I do not think everybody is using React because Guillermo is just really, really persuasive.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux You're stating this like it's facially ridiculous, but I don't see why it is. "Persuasive" not just meaning personally persuasive, but persuasive with the backing and credibility of Facebook? This does not seem particularly far-fetched.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@agocke @brianleroux Millions and million of developers are using React. In surveys I run they report high satisfaction with React. They're not just using it because they were impressed with it, or because somebody told them to. Developers really like React, and I have thousands of data points to prove it.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux Fair enough, but I think it's a point you have to argue with data! Not immediately obvious.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@agocke @seldo I didn't see the part where anyone was debating devs like it or use it.

The points made by Alex and others are concerned with the poor outputs and the advocates changing their stories. (See your colleagues Zach's post about React criticism for ex.)

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @agocke The flaw in Alex's argument is that he focuses only on the (admittedly bad!) results React gets for low-power mobile devices. My point is that developers are not *unaware* of the bad outcomes, they like React *despite* the bad outcomes, so let's look at why. The idea that developers  cannot see that bad outcomes, poor creatures, only Alex can, is why the whole thing comes off as insulting.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @agocke We, the developers of the world, are aware that we are making a trade-off and we are making it anyway, so continuing to yell at us that the trade-offs we knowingly made were bad is not going to do anything but get us annoyed. We KNOW.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023

@brianleroux @agocke The fundamental point of disagreement between Alex and I is that he believes devs cannot possibly know how bad the outcomes are, or they wouldn't make these decisions, and I believe they do.

My position is easier to believe, because for Alex to be right everyone has to misunderstand the world *except* Alex, but for me to be right the only person misunderstanding the situation needs to be Alex.

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚

@seldo @agocke ok so everyone agrees the outputs are poor, and the web consumer experience is being damaged. That's good we agree at least.

Humiliating people is a poor way to convince them to change. I agree with that. Excusing it is also a poor way to affect change.

I try, and fail, to lead by example. I get a lot of toxic stuff thrown at me by smug fans gleeful in their changing storyline. What to do?

Feb 12, 2023 at 4:05pmWeb
Show threadNicole SullivanFeb 12, 2023

@brianleroux @seldo @agocke It’s not the whole story, but I think we need to rethink what responsibility the browser has in all this.

Accessibility primitives need to exist that are side effect of building for the web, not an additional step devs need to take for an already marginalized audience. The economics just aren’t there for devs to do this individually on every site. (I am working on a few APIs that can help)