Laurie VossFeb 11, 2023
You're not stupid for using a framework, and nobody has pulled a fast one on you. https://seldo.com/posts/the_case_for_frameworks
The case for frameworks

Today I read Alex Russell's post The Market for Lemons and I found myself compelled to write a rebuttal. I am a big fan of Alex's work in general but not of this post in particular, which is very long, so allow me to attempt to summarize it

Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 11, 2023

@seldo economics indeed but the changing storyline is also well documented (yes that's grifting!)

And also ppl need to know how HTML/etc work in order to use React not the other way around.

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 11, 2023
@brianleroux I do not think everybody is using React because Guillermo is just really, really persuasive.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux You're stating this like it's facially ridiculous, but I don't see why it is. "Persuasive" not just meaning personally persuasive, but persuasive with the backing and credibility of Facebook? This does not seem particularly far-fetched.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@agocke @brianleroux Millions and million of developers are using React. In surveys I run they report high satisfaction with React. They're not just using it because they were impressed with it, or because somebody told them to. Developers really like React, and I have thousands of data points to prove it.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux Fair enough, but I think it's a point you have to argue with data! Not immediately obvious.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023

@agocke @seldo I didn't see the part where anyone was debating devs like it or use it.

The points made by Alex and others are concerned with the poor outputs and the advocates changing their stories. (See your colleagues Zach's post about React criticism for ex.)

Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @agocke The flaw in Alex's argument is that he focuses only on the (admittedly bad!) results React gets for low-power mobile devices. My point is that developers are not *unaware* of the bad outcomes, they like React *despite* the bad outcomes, so let's look at why. The idea that developers  cannot see that bad outcomes, poor creatures, only Alex can, is why the whole thing comes off as insulting.
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @agocke We, the developers of the world, are aware that we are making a trade-off and we are making it anyway, so continuing to yell at us that the trade-offs we knowingly made were bad is not going to do anything but get us annoyed. We KNOW.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @agocke so are we supposed to pretend it's good and bad web experiences are good for consumers?
Show threadPaul McBrideFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @seldo @agocke I think @seldo is saying that shaming developers or treating like they don’t know what they are doing doesn’t make things any better for consumers either.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@ThePaulMcBride @seldo @agocke I agree w that and have said as much. I don't think the solution is excusing unprofessional outputs or toxic actors tho either
Show threadLaurie VossFeb 12, 2023
@brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride @agocke I think calling the outputs "unprofessional" is deeply condescending. A professional has looked at situation, made a tough trade-off, and the result is the output. It's deeply professional, in that it's a compromise made to satisfy every stakeholder to the best of their ability.
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke respectfully disagree. If a site isn't accessible by default it's not professional.
Show threadLaurie Voss
@brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride @agocke We're all just trying our best, Brian.
Feb 12, 2023 at 4:16pmWeb
Show threadBrian LeRoux 💚Feb 12, 2023
@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke that's great! Me too.
Show threadAndy GockeFeb 12, 2023
@seldo @brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride well that's clearly not true. Thousands of devs were working hard on crypto garbage to knowingly scam people out of their life savings. Let's not assume everyone is in this profession for good reasons