John GruberWe’re just reinventing it from the grassroots once again. Clients like Ice Cubes and Ivory show previews of Mastodon posts when you include the URL in your quote post. It’s already happening and Mastodon’s official web interface will have to catch up. They lost their chance to define the quote-post on Mastodon by refusing to do it all for highly dubious “safety” reasons. https://mastodon.social/@film_girl/109759044241043089
Bed@gruber @ivory I find mastodon previews to be sooo hit and miss. Is it instance dependant. For example this is how your post looked to me in Ivory
Jordan Kay@bed @gruber Mona has gotten this right from day one. I honestly forget there technically isn’t quote posting on Mastodon because of that.
Sebastian
🏳️🌈 Lucy Wildboots 
@moehrenfeld I think most people think as you do right up until the function is weaponized against them. IMHO it is an opinion that helped ruin BirdChan. ‘I want what I want when I want it’ is a bad reason to further implement a feature to which a huge chunk of Mastodon is opposed. 1/2
@moehrenfeld 2/2 I don’t care that your feed was peaceful. I care about those who were hurt by it’s use. Until you can protect my right to consent to its use for my posts, until you can prevent its use for doxxing I will oppose further implementation. Proactive consent, my right to be safe, is part of what makes this place so special.
@LucyWildboots @_Jordan @bed @gruber I understand this and I also want people to be safe. But clients are already implementing it so if we want a safe implementation in the protocol it should happen soon. We (as in early Twitter users) invented Quote Tweets without support from Twitter because we wanted to use it. It will happen here as well.
@moehrenfeld ‘Everyone else is doing it’ is an interesting take on Holocaust Memorial Day. Then wrapping it up with the tech version of‘thoughts & prayers’ is, honestly, bs. We (as in early Twitter users) created a lot of stupid things that we do not have to repeat here. And since I started in 2007 I blame myself too. Here’s an interesting notion: instead of saying you care, actually care.
@LucyWildboots @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber way to get people to switch off any reasonable debate: compare it with genocide. Just saying.
@bed to assume that there will be real debate in which the pro-QT side would actually stop their push to implement is either deliberately disingenuous or incredibly naive.
And the holocaust didn’t spring up overnight. It happened one day at a time. One ignored wrong at a time. The tool as currently implemented removes a core principle of Masto: proactive consent. And that is worth fighting for.
@LucyWildboots @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber I don’t understand how linking to a publically accessible url is against consent. This is how the web works. If one doesn’t consent to the url being linkable by *anyone anywhere* it shouldn’t be a public url.
Mike Beasley@bed @LucyWildboots @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber
“Quote tweeting is just like genocide because I don’t like either of them.”
“Blocking quote tweets will prevent doxxing.”
“The community is opposed to it, I speak for all of them.”
“Consent must be given for linking to a public web page.”
Kind of impressive how far people have to bend over backwards to argue against this and still make zero compelling points.
If you don’t like quote posts just don’t have one. 🤷🏻♂️
@MikeBeas This fixation on the Holocaust as being solely about the genocide is incredibly simplistic. When I made the reference I assumed my audience was sophisticated enough to understand that there were many bad choices and many steps that got the world to that point. My apologies for that assumption. 1/2
@LucyWildboots @MikeBeas @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber better stop using the internet if linking to urls is so problematic! Cos that’s all quote replies are.
@bed @LucyWildboots @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber The Hypertext Transfer Protocol has its roots deeply embedded in historical fascist movements and perpetuates genocide of marginalized groups. In this essay I will
@MikeBeas oh good! We’re now at the mansplaining part of the argument.
@MikeBeas and now the gif. I’ll give you this, you’re boringly predictable. @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber
@LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber if it’s a choice between boringly predictable and claiming quote tweets are the holocaust i know which one i prefer.
@MikeBeas & we’re back to the Holocaust as a single event instead of a series of bad behaviors. I was never going to give you a reason you could accept because you don’t want to accept it.
Your only solutions are mansplaining the internet to a woman who’s first online game was MUD 1; a poor .gif post; & telling a significant group of people who disagree that they should go private because you can’t code well enough to find a real solution.
@LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber Propose a solution other than taking your account private which prevents people from copying and pasting a link to your post. Go ahead. We’re all waiting.
@MikeBeas No. It’s not my job to work flow for a change you want to make. Do your own heavy lifting, slacker. @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber
@LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber The work has already been done. A picker has been added to your compose screen that lets you choose if someone can see your post without your permission. Try it out.
@MikeBeas are you referring to the picker for who can see my posts? If so, nice try but epic fail. Now if there was an actual setting that said “Allow QT” with the default being off I could live with that. And if you’re really so inept that I have to do a flow, then if you tried to QT my post you get a notice box telling you ‘users does not allow QTs of their material” I find it sad that all these codes can’t figure that out.
@LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber Copy the link and paste the link. Quote post permission bypassed. Great and secure system you’ve got there. Foolproof permissions. Bravo.
@MikeBeas you make me sad. You also remind me of every brogrammer I had to work with @ EA. No, that’s not a compliment.
Of course there are ways to game the system. They could also do a screen shot. But those are a hassle & that hassle often causes people to self moderate. If I have chosen the off setting in my workflow, I can simply alert the post and have it actioned.
Coders can do the right thing. For all the disenfranchised, prove me right.
@LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber You have full control over who can see your posts already. Congrats. You win!
@LucyWildboots @MikeBeas @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber if a url preview to your posts say that - isn’t that a decent compromise? That gives you the consent you’re after no? Genuine question.
@bed I wish I had a flow chart app.
Settings -> Allow QT? - Yes/No default no
Poster tries to QT my post -> it is treated as an attachment -> Poster served info box ‘User does not allow QT’ -> attachment fails.
If they game the system I alert my sysop and the post is actioned.
@bed I know that anything that seems simple to code usually isn’t, but this seems the most elegant of solutions.
But thank you for being the first person to seriously ask me what consent could look like. There may be others in the pro-consent group that have better ideas, but they are too afraid to say.
Richard Earney@LucyWildboots @bed @MikeBeas @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber I’ve learned that Mike should not be the one working on the team to solve a problem like this.
Maybe a solution could be a switch on a post. When you post you can allow/disallow QT. If anything bad happens later or you change your mind you could switch off the ability for QT on the post.
Plus have a pref for a blanket allow/disallow.
More control for the poster
It won’t stop linking, but it is more cumbersome to do that
Maybe a solution could be a switch on a post. When you post you can allow/disallow QT. If anything bad happens later or you change your mind you could switch off the ability for QT on the post.
Plus have a pref for a blanket allow/disallow.
More control for the poster
It won’t stop linking, but it is more cumbersome to do that
@LucyWildboots @bed @MikeBeas @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber *should not in case the edit doesn’t make it 😱
@methodphoto @LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber I can’t believe people still think this is a viable solution. It does exactly noting to prevent abuse. This is a clueless “solution.” Which is why Twitter doesn’t have it either. They have a way to prevent unwanted quotes and it’s the same as what we have here. You cannot quote a private account.
A quote is literally just a link. If you think it’s anything more than that you don’t understand this stuff enough to present a solution.
@MikeBeas @LucyWildboots @bed Yes you can make a private account, but you might not want to. Yes, you can have links in posts, but there is a mild barrier to using that ability.
Unfortunately you're attitude isn’t helping think of a better solution, but just repeat the same thing, as well as demeaning any POV other that yours. It isn’t very Mastodon. Lucy has put forward a genuine issue but you’re thinking in a limited and not very empathetic way.
Unfortunately you're attitude isn’t helping think of a better solution, but just repeat the same thing, as well as demeaning any POV other that yours. It isn’t very Mastodon. Lucy has put forward a genuine issue but you’re thinking in a limited and not very empathetic way.
@methodphoto @LucyWildboots @bed You don’t define what is “very Mastodon” lol. What an entitled thing to say.
The solution you have presented does not stop any of the activities you want to prevent. Doxxing and harassment don’t disappear because links to posts are uglier than necessary.
Your proposed solution does not create any meaningful barrier. It’s like two clicks. You think that will dissuade someone who already did the work of doxxing? Obviously not. You’re not helping anyone.
@MikeBeas @LucyWildboots @bed
If there is entitlement here, I’m not sure I’m the one needing to look in the mirror.
So suggest a better way that doesn’t involve making an account private, but keeps the poster in control, you’ve not listened when people on the thread have said tthat’s not good enough
But if you just want to say the same thing, please don't bother replying because I have read the whole thread.
If there is entitlement here, I’m not sure I’m the one needing to look in the mirror.
So suggest a better way that doesn’t involve making an account private, but keeps the poster in control, you’ve not listened when people on the thread have said tthat’s not good enough
But if you just want to say the same thing, please don't bother replying because I have read the whole thread.
@methodphoto @LucyWildboots @bed There isn’t a better way that keeps the content public. How do you not understand this?
Public. Content. Is. Public.
That’s it. That’s the issue. You don’t want the wider internet seeing it? Don’t make it public. If it’s public, bad people can abuse it.
If you believe there is a way to prevent doxxing and harassment while also saying whatever you want publicly, YOU need to present that. You haven’t. You’ve presented options that do nothing to prevent them.
@methodphoto @LucyWildboots @bed What you’re describing is not possible from a technical or societal standpoint. Making it take two clicks instead of one to harass someone is not preventing the behavior. It’s providing an avenue for them to continue doing so.
Making a post not be public is the only way you can ever protect the content from being publicly abused. Period.
@MikeBeas @LucyWildboots @bed the whole point was to think of the potential technical solutions that could exist if people put their minds to it.
Anyway enough, have a good evening/day
Anyway enough, have a good evening/day
@methodphoto @LucyWildboots @bed What you just said is nonsense. You cannot simply will a technical solution for the human condition into existence.
@MikeBeas
Enough. Stop being a reply guy. Please learn when to let go
Enough. Stop being a reply guy. Please learn when to let go
@methodphoto You’re the one relying to me, genius. I didn’t start this discussion. You guys proposed a publicly discussed a bad idea. I responded to show why it wasn’t viable. You continued insisting it was in defiance of reality. I’ve done nothing wrong, only engaged with your replies.
@methodphoto @LucyWildboots @bed If you don’t want to take an account private, you are responsible for what gets posted in public. That’s it. If you don’t want the wider public seeing something, don’t make it public.
Mastodon doesn’t even have “private accounts” — it had private posts. You can take a granular approach to this. You don’t have to take the whole account private. This is a REAL technical solution that PREVENTS the undesirable behavior. Your solution enables it.
@MikeBeas @LucyWildboots @bed Hardly enables it, just allows more control.
Anyway, great concepts in the thread but it feels like there are gaps. One has to hope that people are better behaved here, but there are no guarantee
Anyway, great concepts in the thread but it feels like there are gaps. One has to hope that people are better behaved here, but there are no guarantee
@methodphoto @LucyWildboots @bed It does not allow any additional control. It provides a false sense of safety that makes people believe they are protected. That false sense of protection might lead them to do something they wouldn’t do in public, and then suffer the consequences of that post because they wrongly thought they couldn’t be abused for it.
@methodphoto @LucyWildboots @bed People will not be better behaved here than anywhere else on the internet. You cannot solve the human condition. Relying on the idea that “people on this public collection of websites with totally different moderation rules are different than the rest of the internet” is top-tier foolishness.
@MikeBeas I have asked to leave me alone. You indicated that you were only responding to my posts & so I stopped. And now this. So let me be clear:
* You trigger my anxiety
* Your posts triggers my cPTSD
* I am afraid of you.
You are becoming an harasser. Is that really your goal? Do you understand that you are becoming the exact kind of person who WOULD abuse quote tweet.
Stop, as much for your sake as mine, & leave me alone.
@methodphoto @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber
@LucyWildboots @methodphoto You’re free to block me if you don’t want to see responses to this conversation. I am not the only one relying to it. I will continue to engage with this public content as I see fit. You are in control of what you see here. Stop putting the blame on others when you refuse to do anything on your own end.
@MikeBeas
I shall cos you’re just a bit of a wanker. Shame really 🤷♂️
I shall cos you’re just a bit of a wanker. Shame really 🤷♂️
@LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber Your operator cannot control what anyone on another instance does. Absolutely goofy that you think this is enforceable. You want to make it illegal to link to your content if you don’t check the right box? Nonsensical.
@MikeBeas I get that you don’t like me for a whole list of reasons. That’s only fair since I think of you as an entitled white jerk. But now you ARE trolling and it’s childish. Just stop.
@LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber You have no plan for how this could possibly be enforceable. You can’t control what people post, especially on other instances, and no admin is going to waste time chasing down people on their own instance for posting the public url to a post. It’s beyond silly.
@MikeBeas at least it’s not repetitive or boring or dismissive or non-inclusive or arrogant or so sure that he’s right he couldn’t see the solution if it was laid in front of him. I asked you nicely to stop. I will ask you again: please stop, I’m feeling harassed.
@LucyWildboots @bed @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber you’re continuing to engage, i’m continuing to engage. welcome to the public internet. again, you haven’t presented any kind of enforceable solution here. it’s not viable and won’t work. what will work and already does work is post permissions because it breaks the ability to use a public link for this purpose.
@LucyWildboots @MikeBeas @moehrenfeld @_Jordan @gruber FWIW I pasted a link to your post in my slack instance (privately just to myself - I’m really not here to cause a ‘pile on’. ) and this is how it rendered. Which is all I really want when I share a url. But it’s definitely not doing what you just described. I do understand your concerns but I don’t think you’re arguing against what I’m arguing for. Which is just accurate url previews.