Mastodawn

Katie Moussouris (she/her)🥜👋🏼

As a bootstrapped founder I’ve certainly had to make staffing reductions to deal with contractions in the market before.

BUT — These tech multibillion dollar companies who saw record profits in the pandemic laying off thousands?

Not at all the same.
Not even in the same universe.

They are not cutting Executive pay or bonuses, which they could easily do if they were indeed running short on cash for regular payroll, which they aren’t.

It’s a straight up labor rights spirit crushing move & I wish they weren’t forcing people to sign their rights away like Elon did so the workers can’t seek class action relief.

We need tech workers unions the same as we need unions for all workers.

That’s right. I’m a CEO who is in favor of labor unions.

Because up until almost 7 years ago, I was a wage earning regular worker just like everyone else, PLUS I deeply understand business cash flow from a profit-driven company perspective.

I just choose to run my company with empathy for the workers, even in times of downsizing due to real market constrictions.

To all the workers in any industry who have been laid off due to mega billion dollar corporate greed, or for real market constrictions, I’m so sorry.

It’s not your fault.

You deserve better, especially more than what these profit giants gave you. Take a good break if you can and know your work is valuable.

Christie Dudley Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 As a side note, agreements where you sign your rights away in exchange for being paid what you are due is not actually signing any right away. That's unenforceable coercion.

Katie Moussouris (she/her)🥜👋🏼Jan 21, 2023

@longobord I wish you were correct in practice.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/16/23557210/twitter-workers-class-action-severance-lawsuit

Laid-off Twitter workers must drop class-action severance lawsuit, judge says

A group of Twitter employees has been ordered to drop their class action suit against Twitter, which accuses the company of not following through on its promised severance pay package.

The Verge

Christie Dudley Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 Oh, that's just been punted to arbitration. It's still working through procedure. They should get their day in arbitration court, which mostly involves retired judges and fortunately moves much faster than the courts.

Christie Dudley Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 If the judge had decided the case on whether the arbitration clause in the termination agreement were binding, then that would be problematic, since the bindingness of an agreement in a contract that may not be enforceable at all is a matter still up in the air.

But relying on the original employment agreement, which governs the entire employment relationship is pretty square with everything. The only challenge they could make to that is that they were never employed, which is obviously nonsensical.

Katie Moussouris (she/her)🥜👋🏼Jan 21, 2023

@longobord I’ve been through both processes in my career and the whole point of that sentence in my post was that I hope they don’t have to sign away their right to join a class action. It does make a difference in the lived experience for past, current, and future victims.

This is because if you have to bring it to arbitration, it’s grueling on you as an individual.
Whereas with a class action, someone other than you self-nominates to take the brunt of the burden off your shoulders, and fight on your behalf.

The time, money, & emotional toll is real & not to be underestimated.

I’ve dealt with labor arbitration and had to sit across a table from the executive who sexually harassed me (touched me and made sexual comments in front of my coworkers), and who fired me the next day without cause & withheld my final pay. Yes I won, with penalty pay, but at great cost other than money.
I’ve also brought a class action as the self-nominated named plaintiff.

But these laid off workers like from Twitter going into arbitration instead of class action has broader repercussions.

It’s also a complete undermining of one key point of class action lawsuits, which are supposed to force an org to change its practices as well as pay what is owed.

Twitter can simply pay off whatever each individual arbitration case entails, but keep shortchanging every other worker by doing the same practices. A class action has the added benefit of having changes imposed and the org audited for compliance.

Christie Dudley Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 Class action would certainly make a difference. I have been the beneficiary of such myself.

When the employees joined Twitter, they had a real (as opposed to illusory) right to refuse the arbitration agreement (as required by California law). They did not refuse, so they are bound. They were probably hired back when they believed they were working for a not-evil company.

I cannot think of any time at all where an arbitration agreement is good for an individual. They're great for companies, as they reduce the cost of resolving cases and always break up classes.

Pierce Nichols, Yak Barber Jan 21, 2023

@longobord @k8em0 That's not necessarily a benefit to companies if a large section of a class decides to all go in for arbitration at the same time...

Christie Dudley Jan 21, 2023

@nocleverhandle @k8em0 I would really like to see how that pans out. It's certainly more expensive to the individual than a class would be.

Pierce Nichols, Yak Barber Jan 21, 2023

@longobord @k8em0 That's the corporate bet... but it works only so long as the cost of arbitration to the individual is above the reasonable recovery. As soon as that's not true and a large group of people are harmed... they can make the cost of arbitrating all of those cases individually much higher than defending a class action. There's a recent example of this that I can't remember the details of ATM.

Christie Dudley Jan 22, 2023

@nocleverhandle @k8em0 I'm still quite torn as to how this will play out in the long run. I think a lot of people will drop because the cost to each individual of litigating is so high. Also in arbitration, you can't use issue preclusion to avoid having to repeatedly relitigate Twitter's fault.

I'm torn whether there will be large scale individual settlements or Twitter will declare bankruptcy first. I genuinely doubt we'll see this real world test of whether compelled arbitration for employment cases can turn out poorly for the employer, although Musk has confounded such predictions many times in the past.

Nicole Parsons Jan 21, 2023

@longobord @k8em0

Arbitration paid by the more powerful side in litigation sn't "impartial justice ".

Christie Dudley Jan 21, 2023

@Npars01 @k8em0 Actually, the way arbitration works is each side pays for it. Most certainly easier for large organizations, but they take lack of bias very seriously.

Nicole Parsons Jan 21, 2023

@longobord @k8em0

In arbitration, you give up your right to appeal and your case cannot be used as legal precedent.

In many ways, arbitration is a flawed process.

Christie Dudley Jan 22, 2023

@Npars01 @k8em0 In arbitration, you do NOT give up your right to appeal, although it's indeed tougher to do that.

Arbitration is a highly efficient process for dealing with conflict between two equal parties. Law is still being refined for when the parties are grossly unequal, such as between a large organization and an individual.

Nicole Parsons Jan 22, 2023

@longobord @k8em0

In arbitration, financial settlements are often secret so others can't use it to bolster their own proceedings.

Arbitration agreements often muzzle the participants so they can't be made public. Investors, customers, and vendors are kept in the dark about a potential reputational risk.

Arbitration settlements can't be used as legal precedent to prevent future occurrences.

The employer can resume their pattern of conduct, just a "cost of doing business" so it continues.

Christie Dudley Jan 22, 2023

@Npars01 @k8em0 See, the key word in there is "agreements". Also, you reference "settlements". These are things the parties agree to in order to put the conflict in the past. 95% of all lawsuits are better off that way.

Then again a good 80% of all lawsuits settle and many never even make it through discovery. Otherwise the cost to the public for the courts would be way more than anyone would be willing to pay in taxes.

Yes, the small percentage that aren't better off include potential class actions, efforts to make a change in the interpretation of the law, and rare edge cases which make news. The vast majority of cases don't make news because they're really boring or repetitive.

Nicole Parsons Jan 22, 2023

@longobord @k8em0

Fair enough.

However, that said, sexual harassment in the workplace was once considered "boring and repetitive" to entities such as Fox News under Ailes or Miramax under Harvey Weinstein.

Who decides what is boring and inconsequential?

Christie Dudley Jan 22, 2023

@Npars01 @k8em0 The employee who had the foresight to opt out of the non-mandatory arbitration agreement in their work contract?

Worthy Jan 21, 2023

@longobord @k8em0

Unfortunately, it is expensive to fight.

Twobiscuits🚴‍♂️

@longobord @k8em0 it should be simply legally invalid. i mean so invalid that the employees can ignore such provisions without any further ado and the company would have to sue them to enforce them but any competent lawyer would have to advise them not to because it would be utterly hopeless, not to say: it would get thrown out for being frivolous prima facie.

Eric Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 Would you have been able to do what you did with your company if you had started a cooperative corporation?

Katie Moussouris (she/her)🥜👋🏼Jan 21, 2023

@ericn my company doesn’t depend on specialty workers. I train almost all the workers that come to us as contingency staff. We allow our customers to hire our trained contractors directly after our engagement.
So an employee-owned model would be inappropriate with the turnover by design in many of our engagements.

Duane Gran Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 I’ve been a business owner and when things got tight we, as owners, went without pay or reduced pay before we ever cut staff. We invested in our people and in addition to the personal pain of lay offs we didn’t want to lose the investment into good people.

But of course we didn’t have shareholders running our company like vultures. The whole idea of profitable tech companies doing lay offs just to appease the stock market is disgusting. It’s bad business and it’s night time they get called out for it.

Steve Bellovin Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 Thank you.

Joe Ortiz Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 Thanks for this!

Gregnee Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 There is exactly one tech giant who has not announced mass layoffs. Not coincidentally, it’s the same tech giant whose CEO just REQUESTED a pay cut from their board.

Iwillyeah Jan 21, 2023

@Gregnee I'm not doubting your facts, I'm just curious, given that the chat online is that the layoffs are not the result of real reductions in profits, but squeezing out maximum profit, what is the motivation for a tech giant CEO to seek a wage reduction? Either there is a genuine squeeze on, or else the CEO is running a false flag to justify future cuts?

Gregnee Jan 21, 2023

@Iwillyeah Apple. Apple has had no layoffs, though they have slowed hiring. Tim Cook requested a change in his pay package that will reduce his pay significantly.

Gregnee Jan 21, 2023

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/apple-ceo-tim-cook-to-take-40-pay-cut-this-year/

Apple CEO Tim Cook to take 40% pay cut this year

CEO requested pay cut after shareholder vote on executive compensation.

Ars Technica

Taci7 Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 workers make choices to work as a number for a big tech firm. Nobody is disillusioned. If you don’t like how big tech works, don’t work for them. Everyone has a choice.

Michael Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 As long as CEO rewards are tied to stock performance, workers will pay. And so will everyone else when prices rise, due to “supply chain issues” and “labor shortage”. It’s a con.

Patrick C Miller

@k8em0 Nod, from another CEO. Well said!

chris Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 Yes 🧡☮️

Toni Aittoniemi Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 I’m from the nordics, and here labour unions have been very influential in general. We have excellent social security and good labour protection. Of course being such a powerful force in society didn’t come without problems of corruption - because power always does that - but in general the people here tend to agree that the labour unions form a necessary ”third power” with the industrialists and the state when solving problems associated with labour.

Deus Jan 21, 2023

As long as Big Tech (or company) ass lickers like this exist, unions in the Tech sector will be a long time coming. Employees like this exist in the US and do so in the Indian IT industry.

Ellis Pritchard Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 Strong Agree on the Tech Workers Union: we are at the stage where software workers (I include testers, UX designers, sysops, EM etc.) are becoming vulnerable to the same kind of pressures as older established industries: over-supply and under-demand, but also monopolies are using their power to starve the sector of engineers, and crush competitors, thus manipulating the job market. We've currently better pay, and better prospects than other industries, but how long will this last?

drkcain Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 When I was a business owner, I had times where I wasn't paid, in order to make payroll. We might have frozen hiring, but layoffs? Epic fail.

the truth is what is Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0
Hell yeah!

Jennifer Reitman Jan 21, 2023

@k8em0 I have exactly the same view but from within my industry, media. It's been a terrible few years in layoffs.

When I see these huge VC backed outlets purging amazingly talented writers, editors and reporters - when they've stripped they dry of their talent, used them to raise funding, I'm infuriated. If I had even a fraction of their funding, I'd not so much as consider those kinds of cuts. As my dad always advised me "your company is only as good as who goes up and down the elevator"