Matt BlazeJan 12, 2023

I often say that election security is by far the hardest technical problem I've ever encountered. Why? Four reasons:

1) Contradictory critical requirements, particularly vote secrecy vs. transparency.

2) No truly neutral trusted third parties.

3) Election do-overs are generally impossible, so the ability to merely detect problems is insufficient. You have to reliably prevent them.

4) Much of the technology than can manage the complexity of elections is inherently untrustworthy.

Show threadMatt BlazeJan 12, 2023

There are a few other problems out there that have *some* of these difficult properties, but elections seem to be almost unique in having all of them.

Add to that the high stakes and sophisticated state actors that are part of the threat model, and it can get really exciting.

Show threadMatt BlazeJan 13, 2023
I know you’ve thought about this for all of the 15 minutes required to qualify as an Official Internet Expert and all, but seriously, real-world election security isn’t simple, easy, or obvious.
Show threadSarah Maywalt 🥌🧶Jan 13, 2023

@mattblaze I get it. The one thing I want to see made standard is for every electronic voting machine to have a paper receipt that the voter can verify that is kept for a manual recount.

I know this doesn't, in and of itself, fix election security, but it's a hole in the system I think needs attention.

Show threadMatt BlazeJan 13, 2023

@sarahmaywalt Receipts of your vote would allow you to prove to a third party who you voted for, which opens the door to coercion and vote-buying.

The requirement for a secret ballot complicates things, but there are important reasons for it.

Show threadSarah Maywalt 🥌🧶Jan 13, 2023

@mattblaze The receipt would be handed to the poll workers and kept by them, but it would be simple enough for the voter to be able to check it for accuracy before it was turned in.

It would not have to have any identifying information on it. The voter would be required to stuff it into a ballot box before exiting the booth.

Show threadMatt BlazeJan 13, 2023
@sarahmaywalt I see. What you're describing is called a VVPAT ("voter verified paper audit trail") or a "ballot marking device", depending on the particular configuration. Unfortunately, studies have suggested that in practice, voters don't appear actually check them at a sufficient rate to reliably correct for machine errors or malicious programming.
Show threadSarah Maywalt 🥌🧶
@mattblaze Perhaps, but it would help prevent any malicious actions that affect the account after the vote occurs from affecting the count. Also, there have been reports of voters using an electronic machine and the machine appearing to misattribute the vote. If the malicious code was buggy enough to tip its hand so that the voter would question what happened, such a receipt could confirm that there is a problem and lead to an investigation.
Jan 13, 2023 at 5:28pmWeb
Show threadMatt BlazeJan 13, 2023
@sarahmaywalt I know this sounds impossible, but believe it or not, people have actually studied this stuff carefully.
Show threadSarah Maywalt 🥌🧶Jan 13, 2023
@mattblaze I get that. Not questioning it. I'm not suggesting that it is a panacea. However, recounts that only rely on the electronic count are pointless. There is no way at all for me, as a voter, to verify, in any way, that my vote was entered correctly. All I want, as part of all the other necessary precautions, is a mandatory paper trail, and I know some jurisdictions don't have them. I think that is a problem. Not THE problem. Just a problem.
Show threadvyJan 13, 2023
@mattblaze @sarahmaywalt I know this sounds impossible, but believe it or not, people have learned ways of imparting information without sarcasm or insult!
Show threadMatt BlazeJan 13, 2023
@sarahmaywalt @vy Perhaps I should smile more.
Show threadAndy LowryJan 13, 2023
@mattblaze @sarahmaywalt @vy
I gotta warn ya, if you do that, people will encourage you to smile more. Just say no.
Show threadMatt BlazeJan 13, 2023

@vy @sarahmaywalt for the record, yes, I’m not always very “nice”. Your demands that I be nicer are noted, but will be ignored.

I do, however, try to be helpful and share useful, accurate background information on this important subject, about which I have some actual expertise.

Show threadSarah Maywalt 🥌🧶Jan 13, 2023

@mattblaze @vy Matt, you're a professor of computer science and law at Georgetown University, so I kind of feel I shouldn't have to tell you this, but if you don't want comments on your thoughts, don't post them on a site to be commented upon.

I hope you treat your students better than this.

Show threadTazorJan 13, 2023

@sarahmaywalt @mattblaze @vy

Maybe his students like his "no bullshit" kind of answers? I find them refreshing. Matt is basing his statements on studies conducted. If you link to studies that support your view, then I'm sure he would love to read them. Until then it is just your opinion, which you are entitled to, but Matt doesn't have to give them any weight.

Show threadSarah Maywalt 🥌🧶Jan 13, 2023
@Tazor @mattblaze @vy If he gave them no weight, he wouldn't feel the need to respond.
Show threadDavid Penfold Jan 13, 2023
@sarahmaywalt @mattblaze @vy maybe his students read the subject matter before asking questions or making assertions 🤔
Show threadvyJan 13, 2023
@davep @sarahmaywalt @mattblaze As as former university professor, I find that difficult to believe.
Show threadDavid Penfold Jan 13, 2023
@vy @sarahmaywalt @mattblaze haha! Fair enough 😁
Show threadMatt BlazeJan 13, 2023
@sarahmaywalt @vy i shouldn’t have to tell you this, but you are free to go fuck yourself.
Show threadSarah Maywalt 🥌🧶Jan 13, 2023
@mattblaze @vy Georgetown's finest.
Show threadRichJan 13, 2023
@mattblaze, you earn the honour of being my first Fediverse block for reasons of unnecessary assholery! Well done. It was nice while it lasted. 🤷
Show threadRyan Egesdahl Jan 13, 2023
@sarahmaywalt @mattblaze @vy Well, students should ask questions of their teachers rather than assert answers. If you state something false as if it is true, an expert not beholden to being “nice” when correcting you, especially in a public forum where your statement might be mistaken by others for being informative. The expert is being kind enough to give you and everyone else the correct answer for free already.
Show threadvyJan 13, 2023
@deriamis @sarahmaywalt @mattblaze She didn't assert anything that wasn't true. One of the big advantages of systems like the one we have here in Travis county is you can check your paper printout before it gets scanned. It's not foolproof and many people don't check, but it is a good engineering solution to part of the problem. And she just asked about it. You'd think someone was yelling at the Pope by the way you all have reacted.. AND most important, she is not his student.
Show threadRyan Egesdahl Jan 13, 2023
@vy @sarahmaywalt @mattblaze Please don’t paint with a broad brush like this. We’re not all fans defending our team captain here. You also seem to have missed the fact that Matt said (and has always said) that no voting system is foolproof, so reiterating the not-foolproof thing done in your locality (as the replier above also did) as a good idea others should follow misses the point entirely.
Show threadvyJan 14, 2023
@deriamis
I just felt he was bullying and that pisses me off. Anyways, his pitch is wrong: voting is far from the hardest CS problem. In fact it's not a tech problem at all - it is a political problem caused mostly by Republican voter suppression. France votes on hand counted paper ballots. It works.
Show threadRyan Egesdahl Jan 14, 2023

@vy Just so you know, Matt would agree with you about paper ballots. He’s stated so himself. Also, you apparently didn’t understand what was meant by “hardest CS” problem if you think that saying it’s a political problem is disagreement. A problem can be both CS and political.

Matt wasn’t bullying you. He was telling you outright that you didn’t understand what he said and also that your assumption that his statements were made from a position of ignorance was incorrect.

Show threadvyJan 14, 2023
@deriamis He wasn't bullying me at all. I was not involved in the discussion. and really I'm not worried about what Matt might say about me. But I thought he was bullying someone else and that did bother me.
Show threadvyJan 13, 2023
@mattblaze @sarahmaywalt For the record, I didn't demand anything.
Show threadSarah Maywalt 🥌🧶Jan 13, 2023
@vy Sorry you got sucked into my dumb conversation and it turned out like this. I've got to remember, just because Mastodon is better social media, it doesn't make social media good.
Show threadvyJan 13, 2023
@sarahmaywalt No problem. I know how hard it is for some of us to limit snark - I think it's why I've kept my twitter account. Also, I am 100% sure Matt runs into many programmer types who try to explain to him that it's an easy problem because - because they don't understand it. But I thought your point was good.
Show threadvyJan 13, 2023
@mattblaze @sarahmaywalt The system we use in Travis County Texas is like the one Sarah described https://countyclerk.traviscountytx.gov/departments/elections/meet-your-new-voting-system/
Your Voting System - Travis County Clerk

Elections 2022 "I Voted" Sticker Contest Winners! Current Election Your Voting System Election Results Required Notices Election Calendar Voter ID Ballot by Mail Voters with Disabilities Election Workers Elected Officials Campaign Finance Resources FAQ Cast Vote Record Our new Travis County voting system combines touch screen technology with a paper ballot backup. It's modern, secure […]

Travis County Clerk
Show threadPaul Dot XJan 13, 2023
@mattblaze @sarahmaywalt @vy and wear some prettier outfits 😜
Show threadMike DJan 13, 2023

@mattblaze @sarahmaywalt @vy

Ever consider not boosting reply toots?

Show threadBob BrylaJan 13, 2023
@vy @mattblaze @sarahmaywalt
Also, it's possible to share feelings without micro-aggressive responses, which you seem to be good at, @vy.
Show threadvyJan 13, 2023
@ExadataDBA @mattblaze @sarahmaywalt What was micro about it? I'm not impressed with bullying.
Show threadvyJan 13, 2023
@ExadataDBA @mattblaze @sarahmaywalt In any case, Professor Blaze is completely incorrect. Election tech is complex because of social legal reasons. France has paper ballots - they work. Hand counting and machine checking vote by mail ballots is secure. The problem is self-inflicted.
Show threadBob BrylaJan 14, 2023
@vy @mattblaze @sarahmaywalt OK, macro-aggressive behavior.
Show threadvyJan 14, 2023
@ExadataDBA @mattblaze @sarahmaywalt appreciate the correction.
Show threadNorman WilsonJan 13, 2023
@mattblaze @sarahmaywalt Nonsense. It's impossible to study anything carefully. How can that be done when there's always another expert on the Internet or on TV?