Imagine if we relied on “personal responsibility” instead of the law to combat other public health issues like drunk driving. No rules--just “you do you”. If you're comfortable driving drunk and wish to take the risk, go ahead and do it--why worry yourself with harming anyone else?
Wait, that doesn't work? Then why do maskless conferences, flights, and events work at a time when we know #COVID19 risks are rising. Don't take personal responsibility; take public responsibility. #WearAMask
@augieray It does work though, every day. There's no rule saying you can't lick a bathroom stall, but people don't do it because they understand it's a bad idea. In fact if masks hadn't been mandated they wouldn't have been politicized to begin with.
That being said, the principle of harm always needs to apply, I have no problem with freedom as long as people don't use it to harm others for no good reason.
@augieray If you're taking an authoritarian approach then don't be surprised by push back. There are lots of people who will do something simply because they've been told they can't, and won't because they've been told they must.
Unless we can find a way to foster pro-social behavior from a place of freedom then what's the alternative? Fascism?
I don't think we should have laws the way you probably think of them, I don't believe a handful of lawmakers in the government are competent to tell millions of people how to live their lives.
That being said, people do act in their own interest, and if it can be articulated to them that it's in your interest not to drink and drive, then they won't. And less will do it because they've been told they can't.
When you turn things into a fight with the population you get just that.
@augieray To be clear, I'm not advocating that people shouldn't mask, but instead that if you want them to you can't turn it into a fight, it has to come from a place of their own self-interest.
I helped out with contact tracing during 2020, I'm also an anarchist, I have some experience from both ends of this issue. If you explain to someone why it's important, for them, to mask and isolate, they are more than likely to.
However, if you try to threaten or coerce someone into doing it, they may say they are or even comply, but they are of the same opinion still. Worst of all later on they won't take any more public health advice because it's then become politicized and repressive.
This whole "crimes are caused by laws" idea you have - what possibly makes you think it is true?
@TomSwirly @augieray Not 'illegal' = no 'crime'.
We are only talking about laws here though, not right and wrong or harmful and not harmful. What's harmful remains so whether or not it's illegal, and what's right and wrong remains so regardless of what congress thinks.
This is sophistry.
If you drive drunk and kill someone, it's wrong even if it happens to be legal.
Laws codify what society believes is wrong.
And we need these laws, because some portion of society is antisocial, and would do whatever benefits them no matter what.
@TomSwirly @augieray No. they codify what benefits some congressman.
Law has nothing to to with right and wrong.
I'm sorry, but you have clearly spent no time critically thinking about your ideas, and aren't interested in doing so.
Have a good day.
@TomSwirly @augieray My ideas have centuries of critical thinking behind them.
@SocialistStan @TomSwirly Unlike you, I do click. I read much of the Wikipedia entry. There has never been a functional libertarian society. Societies only thrive with common rules.
In this entire thread, all you've argued for is more people to get sick, die, and suffer from Long COVID. You can pat yourself on your back for your firm commitment to political beliefs, but trust me, it doesn't make you a better person.
"Libertarian socialists advocate for decentralized structures based on direct democracy and federal or confederal associations such as citizens'/popular assemblies, cooperatives, libertarian municipalism, trade unions and workers' councils"
You can't truly have common rules without freedom and association of likeminded people.
It sounds to me like your ideology is a totalitarian one, it only works if you force everyone to comply with congress's rules through violence.
Mockery - not a good look.
I'm sorry - what part of "please go away" did you miss?
The very language is dishonest. It's personal abrogation of responsibility. The policy is simply allowing folks to ignore any responsibility for their impact on others.
"Personal Responsibility" is right up there with Clean Coal" or "Military Intelligence".
@augieray I had been up on my history of plagues for decades before the pandemic, so I called it early, started wearing masks, and expected everyone else to do this, simply out of self-preservation.
Jesus fuck, was I wrong wrong wrong.
We kinda do that for driving while sleep deprived.
I'm not sure how the latter are unconscious: people are generally aware (a) whether they are sleepy (b) how much sleep they've had recently and can use that to make decisions.
It seems that in case of alcohol we've decided on a proxy for its effects (BAC), while for some reason we haven't decided on any similar proxy in case of sleepiness and left it up to the drivers to be responsible.
I don't know how common accidents due to sleep deprivation are (and can't even phrase the question well, because I know of no good proxy for the condition). I expect accidents caused by falling asleep to be a minority of those (because sleep derivation really messes with reaction time and with ability to spot motion on the edges of FOV). So, sadly, I can't tell how good the "please be responsible" approach is for sleep deprivation.
Do you expect this approach to work singularly badly for infection containment for some reason, or work badly in general?
@augieray When (for example) they introduced the no-drunk-driving laws, there _was_ similar backlash in society, it was by no means an easy win. No smoking rules were incredibly controversial. Speed limits, gun control, (vehicle/road/building/electrical) safety standards, ...
So, in a way, yes, this is very much in line. All of this is only possible _years_ after it was clearly needed, because There Is No Glory In Prevention(tm).
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