It's the damndest thing...
When I was growing up, they made me say a pledge every day that said "liberty and justice for all."
They taught me "the golden rule."
They sent me to church to learn about a guy who said we should help the poor and the sick, we should show love to each other.
They told me that "but everyone else is doing it" wasn't an excuse for my own bad behavior.
And now when I advocate for the things that they taught me, they call me a socialist or a communist.
@usdosp
Why did any of us agree to chant that stupid pledge every morning like a bad scene from an Orwell novel?
The Pledge of Allegiance is a loyalty oath, and a loyalty oath has no place in a free country. If the state wants our loyalty, it should earn it by doing things that benefit the masses.
Most of the rest of the world thinks the Pledge is [bad word] weird. We're the only ones that can't see that because we're the targets of this indoctrination.
The oath of loyalty is supposed to be the principles of liberty and justice, something missing since people were humans.
I find a lot of forms of indoctrination troubling.
@tofugolem @usdosp +9001%
People who pledge allegiance to a flag and not values are bad - period!
With all due respect, I think you're kind of going off on a tangent. I'm not saying anything one way or the other about whether or not there should be a pledge or similar...
If you feel that way, you are certainly welcome to leave the discussion.
Sustained freedom for everyone demands limits that prevent one person's free action from destroying the freedom of others. In other words, it demands an implicit pledge to that principle, at the very least.
@MartinFarrent @tofugolem @kkarhan
Agreed 100%
The one place where that gets dicey is when one's freedoms infringe on someone else's rights.
Which is why I say that if we cherry-pick rights, and who deserves them, then we don't actually have any rights, just privileges subject to the ever-changing whims of society.
@usdosp @MartinFarrent @kkarhan
Republicans are the most fanatical about making children chant this stupid thing, and they are the ones attacking our freedoms and launching violent coups against our government on an effort to overturn a free and fair election, so obviously the loyalty oath is not having the effect that you claim. It seems to be having previously the opposite effect.
I don't care about the existing loyalty oath in the USA... I am talking about loyalty to principles, rather than symbols.
P.S. People tend to forget that freedom also has a practical component. If you are legally free to go to university but can't afford to, that legal freedom is fiction.
@MartinFarrent @kkarhan @usdosp
That's a terrible rationalization.
The people with the most positive views about that oath are the very ones actively working to destroy those freedoms right now. Surely you can see that.
You want to promote freedom?
You can start by working to stop the people banning thousands of books all over the country…
@MartinFarrent @kkarhan @usdosp
…You can start by making sure that politicians who endanger the lives and immigration status is legal immigrants for cheap political stunts pay a price.
You can start by making sure every single person who spread the lies that motivated a violent coup intended to end the republic and overturn a free and fair election pays a price.
But this? This ain't it, chief.
The people you cite about ARE trampling on other people's freedom. Preventing that is the principle I am talking about.
@tofugolem @MartinFarrent @kkarhan
Ironically enough, opposing things like the banning of books, the mistreatment of the undocumented, mistreatment of the LGBTQ+, and the list goes on and on and on - they all fall within that simple phrase "liberty and justice for all."
I donno - in a way maybe it kinda is?
They engaged in performative patriotism and performative christianity, then get upset when someone took it seriously.
What OP has been deleted? Mine? It's still there, no reason I would delete it.
I donno if this works or not (still a noob) but here's the OP:
https://universeodon.com/@usdosp/109625599300770443
It's the damndest thing... When I was growing up, they made me say a pledge every day that said "liberty and justice for all." They taught me "the golden rule." They sent me to church to learn about a guy who said we should help the poor and the sick, we should show love to each other. They told me that "but everyone else is doing it" wasn't an excuse for my own bad behavior. And now when I advocate for the things that they taught me, they call me a socialist or a communist.
@oclsc @usdosp @kkarhan
I was talking specifically about the oath, but the oath, and flag worship, and the other stuff are all part of the same indoctrination process.
Most Americans seem to be unaware that we are among the most indoctrinated people on Earth. Since all we know is indoctrination, and few of us travel to free countries, I guess that's understandable, but surely people can recognize the inherent hypocrisy of a loyalty oath in a supposedly free country.
@tofugolem @usdosp why did any of us agree to recite the pledge?
At first it was because we were like 5 and didn’t understand what we were saying (“Who is Richard Stands?”), or that we had a right to refuse. It was on a day we were doing lots of new things that we didn’t quite understand so we didn’t question it.
Later, it was because almost everyone else was doing it (except maybe that one kid whose parents don’t let them celebrate birthdays or Christmas) at it was easier to just go along.
@tofugolem @usdosp always found the US pledge of allegiance odd. I live in a country with a monarch who is still our head of state, and we don't even do something like that.
That and the obsession with the US flag.
Both bizarrely American.
At the risk of being mercilessly mocked, allow me to explain my own personal perspective.
To me the flag represents the ideals that we as a nation should be striving for. Now don't get me wrong - we're not perfect, never have been, never will be. But one good thing from our establishment was that we were given a framework for continual improvement. And I think that is what the founding fathers meant when they said "...in order to form a more perfect union."
But we do have the odd song that is pretty obscenely archaic. 😉
Yeah, but I was talking about Brit slop songs about being a jolly press-ganged tar (no one could ever be freer). Or about saving someone noble and gracious in lieu of saving society.
Growing up in Mexico and attending a primary school run by nuns, we also pledged allegiance, but to the Mexican flag. We had whole ceremonies marching with the flag around the school courtyard, etc.
Very interesting. Like others, I thought that a flag pledge was pretty much uniquely American.
I looked it up, and the translation I found says the following - and I gotta say, I like it!
Flag of Mexico, legacy of our heroes, symbol of the unity of our parents and our brothers, we promise to be always faithful to the principles of freedom and justice that make our Homeland the independent, humane and generous nation to which we give our existence.
Steady now.
This... isn't the shitpost I was promised.
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