emmers
Eugen RochkoI don't feel as strongly about quote posts as I did in 2018. Personally, I am not a fan, but there is clearly a lot of demand for it. We're considering it.
alice@Gargron awesome news, thank you for listening to the feedback
oshy@Gargron Hell yeah gaming moment
Toot Terrorist@Gargron I hope you don't add it, but if you do, at least give us the option to block quoted posts from people, please.
Jurjen Heeck š@twit_terrorist @Gargron That, and the option to block my posts (individually) from being quoted.
Allan Warsing@jurjen_heeck @twit_terrorist @Gargron
One can simply link to a post, but the nicely formatted graph data doesn't display. I don't see the difference in linking to URL or quote posting. I think if you post something to a public website, others should be able to interact with that post. Turning off comments, muting, blocking are legit methods to control your personal experience, but pre-editorializing who can link to a public post I think goes too far.
https://elk.zone/mastodon.nl/@jurjen_heeck/109623908803719520
Wiredfire 
@awarsing @jurjen_heeck @twit_terrorist @Gargron the difference is the immediate visibility of the content combined with, often as seen on Twitter, a call to pile-on or otherwise disparage the original post / author.
We see this happening a LOT on Twitter. We really donāt need to add routes for bullying and abuse here.
Jonasnuts@jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron boosting gives it the same visibility. Itās not the features that are toxic, people are toxic, regardless of the features. I miss qrt a lot. I donāt want to be a mere booster, just an amplifier. I want to ad my vision and my context to it. Iām using link to the toot, and my comment. Iām very sorry that you had such a terrible timeline on the other side, with such horrible qrt. It was very different from my own experience.
@jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron Youāre right, people are toxic not features but people use features and we ignore that at our peril.
You donāt have to be just a booster. Start your own conversation based on something youāve seen! It takes fractionally more effort and is massively more valuable to the community.
@wiredfire itās what Iām doing. But I want to credit the author of the original ideia, thus the qrt. Iām using link to the original toot, mention of the author (it it makes sense, sometimes it doesnāt), and ad my comment. With the new link preview itās almost the same. @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron you can credit the author without a quote.
You can even link to their original post without a quote.
You can achieve everything youāre wanting to without exposing the problematic side of quotes, which is why they werenāt implemented in the first place.
You can even link to their original post without a quote.
You can achieve everything youāre wanting to without exposing the problematic side of quotes, which is why they werenāt implemented in the first place.
@wiredfire yes, I can. Because the problem is not the qrt. The problem is not the feature. Itās people. I can choose to be an asshole without qrt :-) unfollow, mute, block. People have the tools to manage what content they see, they donāt need a sysadmin to decide whatās best for them. Features are not toxic. People are. The game changer, here, is the absence of an algorithm. The rest itās peanuts, fait divers. @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
LÄ«ga@jonasnuts @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron if 10 people pile-on, you can block, however that's a lot of work, all because someone wanted to quote?
@Liga or, if the featured is developed right, you can say you don't want to be quoted. You'll have the freedom to use this just like you want, and I will have the freedom to use it like I want :-) (15+ years of twitter usage - never blocked someone to manage my TL and let me assure you, I'm pretty assertive). @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@jonasnuts @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
As I said, good for you. (To be perfectly sarcastic.)
I saw others receive extremely hurtful comments via pile-ons, once seen it can't be unseen. Suggesting they get a thick skin isn't helpful.
As I said, good for you. (To be perfectly sarcastic.)
I saw others receive extremely hurtful comments via pile-ons, once seen it can't be unseen. Suggesting they get a thick skin isn't helpful.
@Liga they want to be protected from the world? They want the world to accommodate their idiosyncrasies? Eheheheheh @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@jonasnuts @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron no they want a space that is humane.
Your lack of empathy is noted. And since you can't understand other people's SM experiences, perhaps dropping the subject would be prudent.
Your lack of empathy is noted. And since you can't understand other people's SM experiences, perhaps dropping the subject would be prudent.
Carlos Mogas da Silva@wiredfire using the same line of thought, so can someone with toxicity in mind š
So, not having qrt doesn't really accomplish nothing š
Lee Fife@jonasnuts that's what I do. And it almost works right.
Except links often cross instances (preview helps with that) .
And most importantly, it doesn't require consent of the original poster.
Which I think is the critical needed feature: allow quote post or not on each post you make
My ease of creating a quote post is less important than the original author being able to allow quotes or request not to be quoted
@colo_lee Agreed. I donāt qrt here so often as I did there precisely because of that. Over there, I know who allows qrt and who doesnāt. Here, I donāt know. It would be great to have the feature and that people would be able to decide if they want to allow their toots to be quoted or not.
(Matthew)=> š³ļøāššæš¦š®š»š@wiredfire @jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron UX and UI design is about the consequences of our decisions. If a design choice has unintended consequences, that is on the designer, not the user. You can encourage and discourage all sorts of behaviour through design. This is similar to saying "guns don't kill people, people do". If the tool makes a task easier, the task will be repeated more often.
@mdstevens0612 I can see your point, but the difference from a feature to a gun, is that the ātargetā has de ability to control the bullet. You can choose witch bullets you take, witch bullets you dodge:-) @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@mdstevens0612 you are right, āIf the tool makes a task easier, the task will be repeated more often.ā But why do you assume the users will use it in the negative and not in the positive way, now that thereās no algorithms to push the negativity?
@wiredfire @jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@wiredfire @jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
Why do you assume only positive usage?
Your quote also applies to the trolling so regularly associated with quotes on Twitter currently.
We say that people are the algorithm on Mastodon. People can push bad agendas. Mastodon has been insulated from that in part due to relatively small numbers of users. As that is growing so does the danger of pile-ons. Things went āviralā long before the algorithms got involved.
I maintain you can do all you mentioned previously without quotes
@wiredfire I donāt assume only positive usage. I have been around for long enough, to know that there is no āonly positive usageā. What Iām saying is that anyone can avoid seeing the negative usage. But you are right, once again, I can already do everything a qrt does. It would make my life easier. It would help launch debates and, as long as there is an opt out, for people that donāt want their r#toots to be automatically quoted, nobodyās negatively affected.
Bradley 
@jonasnuts @wiredfire anyone seeing negative quote boosts in their feed will be affected. It would replicate the outrage culture on a Twitter. If you want that, go back.
@Bradley_JF Iām very sorry that you could not manage to curate a decent timeline, on Twitter, and that you had a terrible experience, being exposed to toxic trash without being able to unfollow, mute or block the accounts doing such terrible things. I was able to manage my timeline differently, so, my experience with qrt is much better than yours. @wiredfire
@Bradley_JF and I go where the hell I want to go. If you donāt like It, you can leave. @wiredfire
@jonasnuts @wiredfire I shouldnāt have to waste time with blocking hundreds of people like I did on Twitter to accommodate people that want Mastodon to be just like Twitter. Again, if you want to use an app with all the features of Twitter, use Twitter. Donāt try to screw up another social platform.
@Bradley_JF Soooo, because youāve had a lousy experience, you assume everyone else is just like you? Eheheheheh @wiredfire
@jonasnuts @wiredfire Soooo, because youāve had a positive experience, you assume everyone else is just like you? Eheheheheh
@Bradley_JF The difference is that I want you to have freedom of choice, deciding wether you want your toots to be quoted or not, and you don't want me to have the same freedom of choice. @wiredfire
@jonasnuts @wiredfire thatās exactly correct, because we donāt need Twitter culture here.
@jonasnuts @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @Gargron @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @twit_terrorist The issue is exacerbated by algorithms but the underlying cause doesn't go away because its a pattern of human behaviour; We are susceptible to negative engagement. We need to design systems to minimize negative engagement and increase positive engagement. I don't think QRTs are good for this.
@mdstevens0612 soā¦.. mastodon has the goal of changing human nature? @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @Gargron @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @twit_terrorist
@jonasnuts @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @Gargron @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @twit_terrorist If you don't factor in that users are flawed individuals who might give in to their worst impulses, you can foster a really toxic environment. That's why moderation is good, that's why ethics in tech is important. Lacking that consideration is why 4chan is the way it is.
@mdstevens0612 so, you are advocating for a superior entity to decide, on your behalf, whatās toxic and whatās not toxic, is that it?
(Took the other users out of the conversation, as we donāt have here the feature that allows one to exclude himself, and no one was really engaging in the conversation, besides us :-)
(Took the other users out of the conversation, as we donāt have here the feature that allows one to exclude himself, and no one was really engaging in the conversation, besides us :-)
@jonasnuts Well that's already what's happening. We rely on server admins to make moderation decisions and server admins use Gargon's codebase. The only way to have true control is building your own site. I'm advocating the people in charge make the best decisions they can, and I don't believe qrts help as much as they hinder. Also smart to remove other folks, lol, I apologize to everyone for the spam.
@mdstevens0612 Poor Gargron, probably cannot use is main account, with so much reply spam :-)
We rely on admins to make moderation decisions, and we choose the instance we're at also because of the rules. Maybe we can have the same option, regarding features :-) I want an instance with qrt, you go with one that doesn't allow it, and we are both happy. Your toots cannot be quoted, but I can quote other users that allow it.
@jonasnuts And that'd be a fine compromise if every instance respects every other instance's users settings. But like with search indexing toots, there are just some folks out there who do not understand the concept of "leave other people's shit alone" and will find a way to force it on their instances. We fediblock them, sure, but they never learn. And then the fun begins as [email protected] QRTs someone on a server where it's disabled and we have to deal with that.
@mdstevens0612 ah, what you want is a world free of assholes :-) So do I. :-) Will. O happen. Itās always the game of the mouse and the cat.
MarvinFreeman@jonasnuts @mdstevens0612 @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron I'm not sure of this. It is extremely hard for people not to respond when attacked and harder still not to feel some pain. I don't think blocking someone after the fact is, to return to the metaphor, dodging or blocking the bullets.
@MarvinFreeman I suppose it is something thatās easier for some, and something you gain and train with experience. I donāt believe in freedom without responsibility. You are advocating for a sterile environment, where some entity above us all decides what is safe and what itās not, even if we have the tools to do it ourselves. But, this is fediverse, right? Every instance can decide. @mdstevens0612 @wiredfire @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
Lennart Quispel@wiredfire @jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron How can I start a conversation if I am not allowed to mention the subject of it?
MJ Ray@jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron if you want to add your vision to it, reply! Quote-tweets are mainly used by fragile egotists who can't bear to let someone else have the first word. The plus of being read first would be enough incentive to use quotes for bullying here too, algorithms or not.
@mjr to reply is to assume that the author is interested or can understand my reply. I don't take myself that seriously. If I see a recipe from Nigella, I want to boost it to my followers, with some tips of how I've made it work, using my mother tongue. Nigella is not interested in this. Why should I reply? I was a heavy user of qrt, on the other side, thank you for the kind, benevolent and non toxic "fragile egotists" :-) @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron a reply makes no such assumption. It's only a reply, adding your context. It need not demand or expect response.
And I did also note āmainlyā about the egotists. There are some arguably-useful reasons for quote-tweets, but the self-promoters dominate usage by far. The feature obviously encourages toxicity.
@mjr Well, we do not agree on what a reply should be used for. I'm replying to you, because we are having a debate about something. We are talking. Is all of a sudden, someone jumps in, using another language, or talking about something else, I would consider it very rude.
(No prob with the "egotists", many years of engaging online, pretty thick skin :-) @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
(No prob with the "egotists", many years of engaging online, pretty thick skin :-) @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@jonasnuts @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron OK, we disagree, on what replies are, what rude is, and that such self-imposed constraints should motivate addition of a toxic-incentive quote feature
@mjr well, this a diverse environment :-) We can disagree. The difference between us is that you want to limit my freedom, and I don't want to limit yours :-)
@jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@jonasnuts @mjr @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron great, you have thick skin. Have you considered how it affects others, at all?
Gregg@Liga @jonasnuts @mjr @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
Have you considered comments like this is also a form of pile-on? And despite the absence of the feature on this platform several people in her replies are doing it too?
Have you considered comments like this is also a form of pile-on? And despite the absence of the feature on this platform several people in her replies are doing it too?
@DevGen_ @jonasnuts @mjr @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron it could very well be considered that. I haven't seen others replys to her.
@Liga no problem, Iām alright with the assertiveness and with the contempt, it says more about you than about me. :-) Yes, Iāve consider other peopleās sensitivities. Thatās why every instance has rules and moderation. And we choose our server, to get the rules that better equals the way we think. Why not have the same freedom with features? @DevGen_ @mjr @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
@jonasnuts @DevGen_ @mjr @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
Assertiveness doesn't run roughshod over others. Rather than considering what I say as contemptuous of you, perhaps accept that I only feel sadness for discourse that doesnt take into account others experience.
Assertiveness doesn't run roughshod over others. Rather than considering what I say as contemptuous of you, perhaps accept that I only feel sadness for discourse that doesnt take into account others experience.
Billie@jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron this is exactly the reason why not to do it.
Has been pointed out many times as the big positive feature compared to #birdside that this is not possible here.
Quoting and boosting basically stops the discussion and changes it to a talk about the post&author, excluding her/him from any further conversation and giving the trolls a tool for harassment and insulting.
Don't.
@Billie @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @Gargron
I don't know about other countries, but in mine it is used mostly to move the private conversation to public discussions, trying to draft your followers to insult your opponent (The classic QRT commenting 'How can he think THAT????'), misinterpretating a headline to push your point of view and more bullshit like that.
It is not something I'm looking forward to it, to be honest...
Just Tom... š@Billie @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron - I'm intrigued. I had only ever used quote posting to say to others "Hey, look at this fascinating thing" , and it was only after arriving on Mastodon that I understood that it can be used to harass. Mastodon is different and I'll happily trade quoting for the absence of the harassment. It's a minor inconvenience in the scheme of things...
StreetDogg@Billie @jurjen_heeck @wiredfire @awarsing @twit_terrorist @Gargron
I miss QTs a lot because often I explicitly *don't* want to bother the original poster with a (potentionally annoying) reply. I want to communicate my thoughts to my followers, who deliberately follow me to receive that kind of content and can undo that at any moment.
Being encouraged to become a reply guy isn't always making things better...