Mastodawn

Mx. Amadi Lovelace

Reminding leftists once again that their car free walkable utopian ideals are ableist and exclusionary, and that they need to:
a) prioritize accessibility, not walkability;
b) listen to disabled people;
c) think inclusively rather than starting from a premise that removes some people from their vision;
d) listen to disabled people;
e) listen to disabled people.

Luna Corbden Dec 29, 2022

@amaditalks @shrinkthinks I’ve been yelled at by so many anti-car types when I’ve mentioned my difficulties riding a bus. Instead of thinking about the problem. Not to mention my pondering how I would have gotten groceries as a single parent with an infant. They don’t think about families, either.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 29, 2022

@corbden @shrinkthinks disability is at the center of my focus as a disabled person but the needs of parents of small kids, etc. is also an accessibility issue. We have reframed accessibility as solely a disability issue which has been a way of further marginalizing disabled people and making our demands for universal access a special pleading rather than a clarion call for justice for all people.

myrmepropagandist Dec 29, 2022

I became interested in alt text because my niece is legally blind and I hate the idea of her missing out. But, I became an even bigger cheerleader when I realized how many people myself included benefit from image descriptions in a whole host of ways.

A lot of things are like that.

Disabled people are leading ya'll to better design. Just better, not "special accommodations."

Tofu Golem Dec 29, 2022

@futurebird @amaditalks
Alt text has been part of the HTML standard since HTML 1.2. While I try to remember to use alt text in everything (say, in blog posts), almost no one complains when I don't. That always bugged me, and I'm glad Mastodon is different.

Coffeetest Dec 29, 2022

@futurebird @amaditalks universal design makes for better buildings, products and services for everyone. The mindset has to change from checking the compliance checkbox to let's make this better.
#universalDesign #accommodation #compliance

jojoeffe Dec 29, 2022

@futurebird @amaditalks inclusive design benefits everyone, just as inclusion in general benefits everyone 💕

So‑Called Vaughn Dec 29, 2022

@futurebird @amaditalks @moira
It’s also handy for the colorblind who can’t always make out the tiny detail that’s the whole point of the image.

It could benefit a lot of #InMemoriam posts where you wonder “Uh, Who Dat?” 🤔 😝

@vaughnsc Ummm… did you really post that image without alt text in this context? 😆

@amaditalks @moira @futurebird

So‑Called Vaughn Dec 30, 2022

@mivox Egads; thought I had… fixed!

@vaughnsc I think the bottom two are Loretta Lynn and Angela Landsbury. 🤔

So‑Called Vaughn Dec 31, 2022

@mivox I do believe you’re right. That leaves Coolio (the evening news had a segment on the same topic)

Lottie Dec 30, 2022

@futurebird @amaditalks

It feels like it should be an easy sell. Alt text has made things so much better for me just because i like online jokes, and like everyone else i will become increasingly disabled over the course of my life.
I could come purely from self interest and still only benefit from that better design, not least of which because it means _i get to be around more disabled people more often_

Lot⁴⁹ Dec 30, 2022

@futurebird @amaditalks They're often fun to write.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@corbden @amaditalks @shrinkthinks I think there's much more to human-centred infrastructure than removing cars. If there are many smaller shops in living areas, and roads you can cross safely, you don't need a bus or a car. You can make a few small trips a week and don't need to carry that much.

Walking to my local supermaket takes about 3 minutes. Wheelcharing or mobility-scootering also takes about 3 minutes.

Luna Corbden Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @amaditalks @shrinkthinks I get this, and that would be nice (in cities with dense populations unlike where I live now, rural, where each house is on an acre or more and there’s only justification for one small grocery store in a 40 mile radius). I agree with this goal, but we need to take into account the edge cases, and maybe the movement could do less yelling at folks who point out those edge cases? Like, I’m usually kind of scared to talk to y’all.

Luna Corbden Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @amaditalks @shrinkthinks Another issue is that, at least in today’s society, a single parent doesn’t have *time* for several trips a week. With a baby on one arm? What if you’ve got more kids? This calls for other changes to how we do things, which I also support, but it needs to be part of a whole, and that’s what it will take to sell people with problems. And in a democratic society, you’ve got to sell people on it.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@corbden @amaditalks @shrinkthinks I don't think people should try to ban cars, but focus on making other options more viable and safe for most people, and not blame people for using a car where that's their only viable option.

When people here, today, with multiple kids go shopping, the older ones usually walk by themselves. Also keep in mind that going to the shop takes a few minutes, and you don't have to buy groceries for a whole week, so it may even take less time in total.

Luna Corbden Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @amaditalks @shrinkthinks Well I was thinking single mom with twin babies? Which is a thing. And there could be pushcarts and such, if the market is only a 3 min walk. But yeah, these things can all be solved, and it’s a nice world to dream about. I wish more of the movement was like you, able to talk through these problems instead of, like the guy in the replies here who accused me of having a victim mentality. 🤷‍♂️

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@corbden @amaditalks @shrinkthinks I think people saying things like that lack a lot of understanding (and kindness), and what I'm saying is more aimed at them than at you. But I'm also trying to show that there are solutions that can work for everyone.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@corbden @amaditalks @shrinkthinks I'm not describing a dream but what it is like in my city.

My eyesight isn't very good, which prevents me from driving, but at slow speeds I can see things well enough.
I, nor anyone around me has ever considered or even suggested that I have a disability, because there are almost always better options than driving. Friends who live in different cities and commute to work in Amsterdam don't even own cars. But driving is still possible for people who need it.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@corbden @amaditalks @shrinkthinks What made the cities here like this that people in the '70s protested for the safety of children. They changed the infrastructure to make children more safe.

The solution in NA seems to be to buy a car the size of a tank and drive them around safely until they're old enough to drive their own tank.

This is sad to me for the several reasons, but I mainly feel for the children who are denied the possibility to experience age-appropriate independence.

Luna Corbden Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @amaditalks @shrinkthinks These are all reasonable and compassionate points. The car-free movement should make you their spokesperson. A lot of Americans think Amsterdam is a beautiful city and wish things could be more like that here. Remove the need for cars, people will use them less. It makes sense. Meanwhile, a lot of Americans do associate safety with having a car, as you've pointed out, and those are feelings not thoughts, and so need to be addressed somehow.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@corbden @amaditalks @shrinkthinks Thank you for your kind words. I hope that the car-free people find a better name and adjust their focus so that you and others can feel included, or even part of the movement.

I would definitely suggest @notjustbikes as a spokesperson, as he's the one who made me aware of many of these points, knows more about them, and already has quite a wide audience.

I recommend his YouTube channel to anyone who's interested in this topic beyond my 500 character blurbs.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks see this is again where we get into assumptions. If I do not buy groceries for a week or more all at once, I am going to run out of fresh food in my house because my disability means that my energy levels don’t allow me to run to the oh so handy close by little shops day or every other day. I can’t rely on planning such a thing. Designing a society around those ideas is exclusionary. Dynamic disability is the norm of disability.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks I don't really understand what you're arguing against. Giving people options to not drive? I never argued for banning cars, but it feels like you're reacting like I'm taking something away from you. I am describing a way in which many people can get around without a car.

Where are you getting "little shops" from. Supermarkets are big enough to buy all the groceries you want.

Options for disabled people include special taxi, bus, and social-medical transport.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks One of the benefits of giving people the option not to drive, is that they will choose to use different kinds of transport. This makes it more pleasant to drive, as there are fewer cars on the road.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks the problem here is that you keep coming with more “solutions” and “options” that aren’t being asked for and aren’t related to the problem being described, and making assumptions about what fits other people’s needs. That needs to end.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks My only assumption is that I think these options are good alternatives for the people you aimed your original message at: People who say they want to ban cars, but can achieve their (assumed) goals without making it impossible for people with different needs to get around.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks and what about people who can neither walk that distance or use a mobility scooter or wheelchair, but need to access those places?

Psi Dec 30, 2022

@amaditalks @chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks I think one of the main problems is when people hear 'disability' they don't think of, for example, mental health. Grocery shopping is among the things I dread most bc of adhd/autism and the cherry of anxiety disorder in top. Going more than once a week would mean I'd get nothing else done.
Would love it if people could appreciate the fact some people do need cars without having to have it spelled out in detail.

Luna Corbden Dec 30, 2022

@psilocix @amaditalks @chielk @shrinkthinks This! I'm fully mobile, unless you count how I'm often locked frozen solid by my emotions and can't leave the house. I've limited groceries to once a month because the store is an overwhelming sensory and emotional experience that totally drains me the rest of the day. Same with riding a bus (crowded, loud, plus exec function of bus schedules). I'm ok with societal changes, but there needs to be listening to everyone's needs or it won't be "better."

Luna Corbden Dec 30, 2022

@psilocix @amaditalks @shrinkthinks I do like the approach @chielk proposes, that cars aren't made illegal or impossible to use, but that other options begin to be more appealing to those who can use those options. That will be the best way to ween most people off of cars without it feeling like a threat to liberty/convenience/hidden needs.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@corbden @psilocix @amaditalks @shrinkthinks
I think that's a very fair concern, and I can relate to what you're both describing too.

I do wonder if my shopping experience is very different from yours. It takes me maybe 15-20 minutes and I generally interact with 0 people.

I don't really feel any of the anxiety like when I need to pick up the phone to call a doctor for methylphenidate, which I know they don't want to just give me, or start me on unnoticably low dosages or... never mind. 😀

Audr3y Dec 30, 2022

@amaditalks @chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks I think this is the kind of thing that could be supported better with services - in Australia we have (kind of) a fund called the NDIS. Before it was trashed, the idea was that you would apply with your doctor for funding based on your needs.

Need a new wheelchair? An in home carer's help? Grocery delivery? The NDIS will fund it, but *you* get to decide how the money is spent; i.e. you can select your own grocery management service that suits your needs.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 30, 2022

@Audr3y @chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks no, this is not a place where our “services“ are needed. This is a place where people’s access needs need to be respected and included. Services are the opposite of free, independent life with ones basic human rights upheld.

Audr3y Dec 30, 2022

@amaditalks @chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks Can I ask what solution would be acceptable to you then? Because I'm struggling to see what accessible looks like to you.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@Audr3y @amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks To me personally accessible looks like: I can go somewhere without needing a car, because I can't drive. This means safe infrastructure and small distances to places I often need to go. For bigger distances that means public transport that is available, reliable, safe.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@Audr3y @amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks I think in general to me it means the freedom to do what you want without being hindered by design choices, be it in infrastructure, architecture, personal and impersonal interactions.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@Audr3y @amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks But that means different things to different people, and I don't know exactly what it the perfect solution looks like, because I don't know everyone's needs. I just have a strong suspicion that it looks more like the Netherlands than the US.

Audr3y Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks I agree with all of this, and I can't drive so a more walkable/tramable city would make my city more accessible to *me*, but Amadi doesn't appear to want to provide any answers that would help us understand what *they* need, aside from interpreting any desire to provide better pedestrian environments as some kind of attack on them personally.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 31, 2022

@Audr3y @chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks first of all, I have explicated my issues so many times that I'm tired of repeating myself. Second, I don't owe you explanations of what I need, because this isn't about ME. And don't ever try to say how I am interpreting anything, because you don't speak for me.

Luna Corbden Dec 31, 2022

@amaditalks @Audr3y @chielk So, we have a number of us disabled people in this thread talking about our needs with a car-free advocate who is listening to us. I certainly feel heard. Would you prefer to just be dropped from the replies so you’re not getting notified? We can do that.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 31, 2022

@corbden @Audr3y @chielk Yes, absolutely.

Audr3y Dec 30, 2022

@amaditalks @chielk @corbden @shrinkthinks Maybe it's because I'm not American, but I find the idea that services could be the opposite of essential (for everyone, not just disabled people) to be utterly bizarre.

Like, if I need something to help me access the outside world better (like having groceries delivered and working from home so I can save my energy for social outings), it's the role of government/society to provide that for me.

Chiel | خیل | Хил | Χιλ Dec 30, 2022

@Audr3y @amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks I think there may be two related types of cases:

- People/situations that really require some form of services or assistance

- Situations where the reason that assistance is required is that someone's needs weren't taken into account, which could have been avoided

I think that Amadi was referring to the second case only, in the context of infrastructure.

But that still leaves people in the first situation.

Audr3y Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks I get that to an extent, but I feel like they're being deliberately coy about what their needs actually are?
Like, they don't have a mobility issue, but they also can't walk or use mobility devices like scooters.
The *only* option that they say is valid for them is an automobile, which just... doesn't make sense to me, given the info they've provided. And I get that it's not a disabled person's responsibility to have to keep justifying themselves and their needs (and it is fucking exhausting!), but in a discussion about disability access where you're trying to argue for a particular position, you need to actually argue for it, no?
Like, it's just not reasonable to come at people and accuse them of being ableist because their accessibility needs conflict with yours. 🤷‍♀️

Audr3y Dec 30, 2022

@chielk @amaditalks @corbden @shrinkthinks Further to this, their original call to "Listen to disabled people" requires us as disabled people to actually articulate our needs, otherwise what are we telling people to listen to, exactly?

Fardels Bear Dec 29, 2022

@amaditalks I disagree with your basic premise. I've never seen any plans for liveable cities that exclude or limit access for the disabled. If anything, such 'utopian' ideals are far more likely to include enhanced access. And why the 'leftist' snark? You're tilting at the wrong windmill - the RW petrolheads are over there.

ahimsa Dec 29, 2022

@riggbeck @amaditalks I've seen plans/ideas that are not accessible. Recently someone posted a photo that had removed car parking from a town center but the surface was cobblestones or paving stones of some sort, not flat surface. Cobblestones may look nice to some but they are often horrible for wheelchairs and other wheeled devices.

Just one example. There are others but I don't have links right now.

It's not intentional exclusion but accessibility is very often not baked in from the start

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 29, 2022

@ahimsa_pdx @riggbeck if access is not baked in from the start and if the needs of people with all manner of bodyminds and abilities are not central to the planning then it is intentional exclusion. We keep giving a pass to people who aren’t even willing to consider that they don’t know what they don’t know.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 29, 2022

@riggbeck this is a specifically leftist problem, because leftists are the ones who are excluding disabled people from their planning and their ideas entirely and in fact, they are “walkable“ utopias are not accessible, let alone “enhanced access“ at all. Disabled people have been talking about this for years and we are not being heard at all. We’re constantly being told we don’t know what we’re talking about or we’re mad at the wrong people and I’m tired of it.

Nathanael Nerode Dec 29, 2022

@amaditalks @riggbeck

If you're referring to the people who were promoting stair-dependent rowhouses, you have a point.

Most of the rail & bus & public transit activists I know, on the other hand... have been pushing hard for rollable cities. HARD. Strong, large, disabled contingent in this advocacy.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 29, 2022

@neroden @riggbeck Rollable also doesn’t equal accessible. This is yet another assumption of what disability looks like and what disabled people need, and whose disabled voice should be a part of the discussion.

Nathanael Nerode Dec 31, 2022

@amaditalks @riggbeck

I mean, accessible is the sum of a lot of things. I'm currently trying to get doctor's offices to practice INFECTION CONTROL so that immunocompromised people can go to the doctor safely -- that's accessbility too.

But you've made an allegation without facts in evidence, which is just slander.

If you think the walkable utopias aren't accessible, you have to give examples and explain what you're claiming -- because the advocates *I* know are working on accessible utopias.

Mx. Amadi Lovelace Dec 31, 2022

@neroden You know, you could've chosen to engage in good faith or ask for further clarifications about what I'm speaking of and my experiences, but you chose instead to make a completely false and defamatory allegation and be aggressive, so you've lost the privilege of engaging here. Be a better human being in the future.