Mastodawn

@wdlindsy Have we heard anything about excommunicating Greg Abbott?

I think not.

@chemoelectric You're right: I think not! Nor will we hear a peep from them, as some of them target Biden and Pelosi.

As a body, the US Catholic bishops have failed in their pastoral and moral charge — abysmally so.

@wdlindsy Anyone can just go to an Episcopalian church instead. I’m not sure everyone’s aware of that. :)

@wdlindsy (I’m an atheist Jew. I just stay home. :) )

@chemoelectric I stay home, too, and have long maintained that people who have religious commitment have much to learn from those who are opposed to religion and the notion of God. I'm a marginalized Catholic who's been shoved to the margins of my church, so I don't participate — because I've been made unwelcome.

@wdlindsy I am not opposed to religion. That’s the ‘New Atheists’ and the late Madalyn Murray O’Hair, not me. :)

Mark Davis Dec 26, 2022

@wdlindsy @chemoelectric If I'm completely honest I haven't been marginalised by the church. I chose it. Then again, being beaten by the headmaster (a brother) when I tried to report abuse at my school, and listening to decades of cover up does that to a person.

@markstuartdavis @chemoelectric

I hate to hear about that experience of abuse. I've heard other stories like that, and have concluded that kind of brutality was often the norm in Catholic schools. Yes, listening to decades of cover up are calculated to push people from the table. It's a morally justifiable response.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-12/former-marist-college-headmaster-denies-covering-up-allegations/5519874

Mark Davis Dec 26, 2022

@wdlindsy @chemoelectric

We had a Royal Commission here in Australia – an investigation into institutional responses to child sexual abuse. I will never forgive him for this lie.

I told him.

Royal commission into child sexual abuse: Former Marist College principal denies covering up allegations

Former Canberra Marist College headmaster Brother Terence Heinrich has denied he was involved in covering up allegations of child sexual abuse during the 1980s.

ABC News

@markstuartdavis @chemoelectric

I read the Royal Comission report — a really good one. Thank you for speaking the truth. I am so sorry for what they put you through. The glib lying is disgusting.

@chemoelectric You're right. Friends who are Episcopalian have invited my spouse and me to their church, and we appreciate the hospitality very much—but stubbornly insist on not letting those who want to define us out of our own church win, though they've succeeded in pushing us to the margins.

Psychiatric Help 5¢Dec 26, 2022

@chemoelectric @wdlindsy
The problem is nobody is talking about Christ, worship, religion nor Beliefs. They're talking politics weaponizing a false doctrine for Earthly power. Picking out verses while ignoring chapters and books. Switching Churches won't stop Fascistic Theocracy influencing government. IMHO

@Sanityreturn2us @chemoelectric

Yes, that sounds right to me.

Liz Throop | populational Dec 26, 2022

@chemoelectric @wdlindsy Or just stay home. Among religious groups, the decline in membership is steeper among Catholics (down 18 points, from 76% to 58%) than Protestants (down nine points, from 73% to 64%).Mar 29, 2021

@Populational @chemoelectric

Yes, statistics show the exodus of Catholics in the US from the Catholic church is larger than the exodus from other churches — though there's a general exodus happening throughout churches in the US, and it has apparently accelerated after more than half of white Christians in the US, across the board, voted twice for Donald Trump.

The BEST Words Dec 26, 2022

@chemoelectric @wdlindsy No, excommunication is for those who won’t inflict these doctrines on non-believers.

@Language1230 @chemoelectric I'm not keen on the idea of excommunication, but would like to see a clear, strong statement by the US Catholic bishops that actions like the ones Abbott and DeSantis are taking with migrants contradict core Catholic values.

@wdlindsy @chemoelectric Well, I don’t care either way, but am mindful of those who went after Kerry, Biden, Pelosi, and kept their tax exempt status. Clergy should lose tax exempt status if they wade into politics. It’s the Grand Bargain (also, that they help the poor, but good luck with that). I’m not anti-religion, I am anti most favored status for grabbing money, but not providing for the poor. #OldSchoolDemocrat #Progressive #FairTaxation. Am I getting better?

@Language1230 @chemoelectric I think that tax exemptions for churches harm churches.

@wdlindsy @chemoelectric Why?

@Language1230 @chemoelectric

Why what? I'm sorry, but don't know what you're asking.

@wdlindsy @chemoelectric Why do the exemptions hurt the churches? I know how they hurt the communities. Lack of property or income taxes, regardless of the income/charity index. In my view, tax-free churches historically was based on faith-based charity. Reference Osteen’s behavior during a hurricane….

@Language1230 @chemoelectric Giving tax exemptions to churches aligns them with secular government in a way that hampers their ministry. In the case of some nations – Germany comes to mind — where churches receive public tax support, they become very wealthy, and that compromises their religious witness.

@wdlindsy @chemoelectric Although, in today’s Christo-fascist America, Catholicism aligns beautifully with Catholic wishes. I’d like religion out of my civic life. That was promised in the Constitution.

@Language1230 @chemoelectric I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. Unfortunately, we live in a nation that has been accurately described as a nation with the soul of a church — in that, for a significant proportion of Americans, religion spills over into politics. Pretending that's not the case and keeping silent about this political misuse of religion plays right into their hands.

@wdlindsy @chemoelectric True, but the result is that the blurring of the line enabled this SCOTUS to impose it’s narrow interpretation of Catholicism on 350 million people.

Barry Schwartz 🫖Dec 27, 2022

@wdlindsy @Language1230
You know something? I'm experiencing some of that touchiness I mentioned before right now.

I see someone trying to bully others into making the subject Christianity, when the subject is actually that Abbott is a monster.

And all I did was say if he weren't a Christian he'd be just as vile to me.

I am a Jew, unbelieving but a Jew.I DO NOT start with the presumption that what is truly Christian is good. So I don't really care about the fake Christianity that much.

I'm sorry you feel bullied, though if you're calling me a bully, you're barking up the wrong tree. I suspect I'm every bit as touchy as you are at the fact that one of our political parties has identified itself with white Christian nationalism and seeks to impose that ideology on a a whole nation in a pluralistic secular democracy.

(1 of 3)

I don't see, however, that recognizing that evident fact, talking openly about it, and pushing back against it is an attempt to bully anyone at all. It's an attempt to STOP a certain set of US citizens with a lot of clout now, who are using religious warrants to try to bully the rest of us, from their bullying — including their anti-semitic bullying.

(2 of 3)

You may think that it's inappropriate to discuss the topic of religion in connection with pollitics, but the fact is, that topic is out there: it has been put out there by a political party with a white Christian nationalist agenda.

If people of any faith and no faith want to push back against that, I intend to stand with them, because I share their goal of combating the attempt to turn this democracy into a theocracy.

(3 of 3)

Barry Schwartz 🫖Dec 27, 2022

@wdlindsy @Language1230
To put it another way: as an atheist Jew, I do not have it as a goal to rescue the reputation of Christianity.

If you are recruiting Jews for this purpose, that is proselytizing the Jews.

Since I see my handle on this comment, I assume it's addressed to me. If so, can you please tell me where I have written anything at all indicating I am "recruiting Jews"?

The BEST Words Dec 28, 2022

@wdlindsy @chemoelectric On the former site, this is where the funny memes would be posted, Mel Brooks, Monty Python, etc.

@chemoelectric @wdlindsy This is not how I read it. Why do you think he’s recruiting Jews. For the record, I am Jewish, and don’t feel recruited. Yikes.

@chemoelectric @wdlindsy Barry, I think you may misunderstand our conversation. It’s not just Abbott, it’s SCOTUS, it’s Congress. This isn’t about Christianity, except for the larger issue that we are a multi (or no) religion country. William doesn’t need my saying so, but the bullying accusation seems off the mark. (Oh no, my first Mastodon contretemps).

NetworkElf Dec 25, 2022

@wdlindsy Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis are the perfect examples of what xtianity is all about.

@NetworkElf Are they, indeed? I'll take Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, Rev. William J. Barber II, Stacey Abrams, Rev. Raphael Warnock, and, oh, a lot of others as examplars of what Christianity is all about.

NetworkElf Dec 25, 2022

@wdlindsy They are the outliers. Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis are the norm.

Every problem in America starts at the doors of a church.

@NetworkElf Abbot and DeSantis certainly typify a strong strand of the white church in the US, but that's not the whole story of the church in the US. The Black church, for instance, has long been a liberating force that has fought for civil rights for all Americans. I saw this at close hand growing up in the South during the Civil Rights struggles, and am deeply grateful for the fidelity and love displayed by many Black Christians.

Russ Copeland Dec 25, 2022

@wdlindsy never a more loathsome bunch than catholic bishops, they were/are the political firewall that protected pedophile priests for 100s of years.

Līga Dec 25, 2022

@wdlindsy because some are bad eggs you're tossing out the whole thing?

@Liga As a body, the US bishops stand against Pope Francis and for culture war — and for identifying the US Catholic church with the Republican party. Otherwise, they would not just have elected Timothy Broglio their president.

I'm aware that there are "good" bishops. Unfortunately, they are not in the majority in the USCCB.

@wdlindsy you said Christians. And there are problems, of course there are. Generalizations made from a few cases is odd.

@Liga Sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying to me. You state, "You said Christians." I don't even see the word "Christians" in the thread to which you're responding.

@wdlindsy
Delete that bit. My broad point is that abbot and whoever are Catholics, therefore the Catholic church is Republican? Is that what you are saying? Am I missing your point?

@Liga Sorry, no, I don't believe I ever said that.

@wdlindsy k then I'm misunderstanding.

@Liga Sorry my point’s not clear to you.

@wdlindsy
It happens.

Daniel Johnson Dec 26, 2022

@wdlindsy Saints John Chrysostom, Basil the Great, John of Damascus, etc. make it abundantly clear that accumulation of wealth is robbery from the poor. This is a very difficult gospel; who can say they keep it? But bishops, as the presumed successors to the Apostles, should embrace poverty themselves, and encourage their flocks to do the same.

@ossobuffo Yes, I agree. I think the way Catholic hierarchical figures on the whole have dealt with the abuse situation tells us that they listen much more to the advice of lawyers and CEOs than to the gospels — because, unfortunately, money talks louder than anything for a lot of them.

Josh Dec 26, 2022

@wdlindsy I’m happy to be Catholic, but during the two years I couldn’t go to Mass because of COVid I learned that so many of the people one sees in church are the worst possible advertisement for Christianity one could imagine. One cannot accept MAGA and proclaim to be Christian.

I hear you and I agree with your conclusion.

SaraBeth Dec 26, 2022

Jesus was a refugee...for 3 years wandering in Egypt hiding from those who would hurt him and his family.

Abbot should be ashamed.

[email protected]❌👑Dec 26, 2022

@wdlindsy Montana's Rep Matt Rosendale says he attends Mass daily, but votes against everything that would help Montanans.

#MontMastodon #MTPol #MTNews

@gwaldby Astonishing, isn't it? Then there's Gosar in Arizona. These sorts are legion, and the Trump administration was chock-full of them.

It's a real indictment of the US Catholic church, especially in its white iteration — with 60% of white Catholics helping elect Trump in 2016.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/13/white-christians-continue-to-favor-trump-over-biden-but-support-has-slipped/

Mike Myers Dec 26, 2022

@wdlindsy @gwaldby

The 2016 vote was bad enough, but the 52% of white Catholics who voted to reelect him is more disturbing.

White Christians continue to favor Trump over Biden, but support has slipped

President Trump continues to be White Christians’ preferred candidate, but support among voters in three traditions has slipped since August.

Pew Research Center

@CArainmakers @gwaldby

I very much agree. It's quite an indictment of the (lack of) moral and pastoral leadership of the US bishops.

BluePrairie Dec 26, 2022

@wdlindsy agreed. If they don't understand why there is such a decline, then there really is no hope for a turnaround. Their silence equals complicity. Complicity equals the loss of any moral authority the Church strives for. No moral authority equals their decline.