JP
Sheril KirshenbaumThis quote by Carl Sagan hangs in my office. #science
🌻 ⛈️ FlowersStorms😷 🌺 🌼@Sheril Love this. Dr Sagan is still much missed.
xs4me2@Sheril
Not only that, it seems a quality rare and almost lost in social media. Polarized and not able to see the other side. It has been puzzling me especially lately.
Not only that, it seems a quality rare and almost lost in social media. Polarized and not able to see the other side. It has been puzzling me especially lately.
touch fluffy tailmost people who make arguments in politics do so to accomplish some ulterior motive, for example to change the culture.
in scholarship, arguments are often made to explain new insights and share knowledge
these differences by the speaaker make a big difference to the listener, and says much about the sort of talks about politics and religion that sagan engaged in.
in scholarship, arguments are often made to explain new insights and share knowledge
these differences by the speaaker make a big difference to the listener, and says much about the sort of talks about politics and religion that sagan engaged in.
James 🦉 #FBPE 
@xs4me2 @Sheril I think social media is simply showing us just how polarised most people were in their thinking before social media came along to show just how multifaceted, nuanced, chaotic and paradoxical the world is and, naturally terrified, many people have doubled down and closed ranks as a defence mechanism. It will pass - it's a phase - a baptism of fire for many - dragged kicking and screaming towards critical thinking the hard way because education, or its lack thereof, has failed them
Catherine is not complacent
TAI@CatDragon @xs4me2 @Sheril It should be clear behind the feigned concern , they live for the spectacle. It wasn't a minute and already retired generals walking people through the potention game plans. The unspoken proposition you have to pick a side, their side. It should be obvious to any thinking person that we can despise both equally for destruction of innocent civilians and children.
True, the attitude of the modern media...
Mary Austin@Sheril Damn! That is good. He was a force.
Hugh Murray@Sheril Nice quote. But the pessimistic last line reveals that Sagan May not have paid very close attention to areas outside of science. Just to take a huge sea shift in his own lifetime, attitudes on race relations in the US changed enormously. Since his death, attitudes on same sex marriage dramatically adjusted. There are many other examples; not as many as there should be, because we are all human, as he says.
Stephen J Kimber@hughfmurrayiii @Sheril
Good point Hugh. We're all a little inclined to see the world as we'd rather have it - I do think, despite the inimical headlines we see every day, that the world is in a better place in so many ways than it was say 50, 200, 500 years ago.
That said, we need to get our shit together on climate change, social inequalities and many other issues clammering for our attention now. Sagan's gripe re the polarising POVs of religion & politics is still a worthy observation.
Good point Hugh. We're all a little inclined to see the world as we'd rather have it - I do think, despite the inimical headlines we see every day, that the world is in a better place in so many ways than it was say 50, 200, 500 years ago.
That said, we need to get our shit together on climate change, social inequalities and many other issues clammering for our attention now. Sagan's gripe re the polarising POVs of religion & politics is still a worthy observation.
Religion and politics often aided and abetted by big (and generally fossil fooled) business.
Tom Husband@Sheril Certainly not religion.
CounselorBecky🖖🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🇺🇦🗳🌊😊
always tired (moved to chaos)
nebuchi_25 
@project1enigma @thusband @Sheril exactly what i came here to say. also, that some ideas in capitalist science persist despite strong evidence to the contrary. science is not a pure field of open inquiries.
Sune Auken@project1enigma @thusband @Sheril
Good point!
Moreover, it happens in the Christian Bible all the time too and in numerous later conversion stories - one way or the other.
It also happens frequently in politics. Not only do positions shift and shift recurrently. Often, politicians need to change parties because they or their party have shifted postions. Often at a harsh personal cost.
I have the greatest respect for Sagan, but this quote isn't his finest moment.
@project1enigma @thusband @Sheril
And yes, obviously, it happens in scholarship and science all the time too. In fact, many of us working in the academy are gluttons for getting to new insights and changing old opinions.
@project1enigma @thusband @Sheril
But - fortunately - we are not the only ones doing it, and we'd be fools to disregard others' ability and willingness to change their views.
Jan Vlug@thusband @Sheril Many religious people become irreligious over time, like me. I also saw people moving in the political spectrum. Many call changing opinion weak or untrustworthy, for me it is a sign of evaluating your own views and taking consequences. Sometimes people make wrong evaluations in my opinion. But, I see way more good changes, like many people going vegan.
Otto von Wienerberger@Sheril we miss Carl!
Sue@Sheril
Great quote
Great quote
John Caveney woke is me🛠️
Stargeezer Smith@Sheril
I've thought of it as time constant. Science has a short time constant with discoveries dominating in a short time. Science can only progress with a solid foundation.
Politics has a longer time constant. It is very slowly becoming more liberal. Politics is very wastefully cyclic, struggling periodically with the same issues all over again.
Religious people like to think their truths are fixed, but they are not. Over time religion bends to social will. Else the pews would be empty.
Joseph Ottinger@stargazersmith @Sheril Not only social will, but knowledge and conditions. A religion fixed in time dies because the conditions around it change, and a religion with ANY rationality will change with it as the mores of the people who are its adherents change, and as the conditions of knowledge change as well; a religion based on the idea that the sun is a chariot would HAVE to change or die, and would indeed change.
Barry Goldman@stargazersmith @Sheril what do you mean science: short time? some developments/shifts in theory in science take >100 yrs.
@barrygoldman1 @Sheril
I'm mostly interested in physics and astronomy. Those fields have changed considerably in my lifetime. And computer science changes very rapidly.
I'm mostly interested in physics and astronomy. Those fields have changed considerably in my lifetime. And computer science changes very rapidly.
@stargazersmith @Sheril on the other hand we still don't understand what qm is nor galaxies rotating too fast and even some people say fundamental physics is in a current 40 yr slump!
but astronomy discoveries... that's maybe true. they keep coming.
Dubiago 💫@Sheril It's been happening in the Catholic Church in rather large ways since Vatican II. Politics, though...yea...people are more concerned with power maintenance than solving problems.
Irina
Tim Erickson, @stpaultimYes. The incentive structure between science and politics is different. In science, adopting a new position, might hurt in the short run, but will hopefully be rewarded in the long run.
In politics, one is usually punished for changing ones position, which often means loosing ones career.
We need to ask ourselves if we reward politicians that are open to new ideas and change their positions or do we reward consistancy and telling us what we most want to hear.
Japonica
Christopher SmallReligions could learn much from scientific methodology, I think. And if, under science’s bright light, religions were to wither and die, then I would be saddened by it. But so be it. However, I suspect an existential core—inexpressible—might remain, or more.
But isn’t it ironic that as science digs for the fundamental laws of reality, it takes on some characteristics of religion, as Roger Penrose and others have noted.
@cgsmall @Sheril science always has shared characteristics with some religion: born in wonder, seek to know the universe, tools to get outside our petty minds..
it even began with some amount of faith that there was enough stable pattern in phenomena that persistant experiment and observation would pay off. that faith probly came from christianity, i.e. god created world and said it was good. (judaism really)
Kevin Ashworth ☑️@Sheril While I agree with Carl's assessment, it seems truest on an institutional level. I've certainly made big changes personally in terms of politics and religion, and I know many individuals who have. Interesting to think about the difference between a group and a person in that group.
@kevinashworth @Sheril but science IS an institution, not personal. or at least it is a community, with traditions. i can't call a single person making discoveries without communicating with community... a scientist. vertebrates been doing that for millions of years.
Sudhir@Sheril Yes, Sheril, it's absolutely correct! Before it was discovered that the Earth was like a Sphere, ancient people believed that the Earth was Flat & if anyone crossed the edge, he will fall flat in Space! When Galileo made a statement that the Earth was round, he was compelled to drink poison as his statement was considered blasfamouse against religious belief of that time!🤔😜
Tim Glauert@timglauert @Sheril Small Correction. I have discovered in Google/ Wikipedia posted below:-
Aristotle (384-322 BC) was among the first to recognize the fact of our planet being a round sphere. He observed lunar eclipses and noticed that only a round sphere could imply a circular shadow. This astronomical observation was confirmed by general observations made at sea.
My apologies please.😜🙏
Aristotle (384-322 BC) was among the first to recognize the fact of our planet being a round sphere. He observed lunar eclipses and noticed that only a round sphere could imply a circular shadow. This astronomical observation was confirmed by general observations made at sea.
My apologies please.😜🙏
@timglauert @Sheril .Another correction about Galileo:-
For his heresy in claiming that Earth orbits the Sun, Galileo was sentenced to life imprisonment by the Roman Catholic Church in 1633. He was not tortured or executed. He served his sentence under house arrest and died at home in 1642 after an illness. My apologies again.🙏
For his heresy in claiming that Earth orbits the Sun, Galileo was sentenced to life imprisonment by the Roman Catholic Church in 1633. He was not tortured or executed. He served his sentence under house arrest and died at home in 1642 after an illness. My apologies again.🙏
Joshua Marshall@timglauert @SKV @Sheril The Catholic Church did, however, declare Galileo's assertion that the Earth revolves around the Sun (and not the other way around) to be heresy. Galileo was forced to live out the rest of his days under house arrest.
Janne@SKV @Sheril well, actually... No one serious considered earth flat after 500B.C. https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_geodesy/geo02_hist.html
Galileo's heresy was earth revolving around sun.
NOAA National Ocean Service Education: Global Positioning Tutorial: The History of Geodesy
Throughout history, the shape of the Earth has been debated by scientists and philosophers. By 500 B.C. most scholars thought the Earth was completely spherical. The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) is credited as the first person to try and calculate the size of the Earth by determining its circumference (the length around the equator) He estimated this distance to be 400,000 stades (a stadia is a Greek measurement equaling about 600 feet). With one mile equal to 5,280 feet, Aristotle calculated the distance around the Earth to be about 45,500 miles (Smith, 1988).
Andy The Engineer@andy_theengineer @Sheril . Yes you are right.👍🏼😊. I have already sent the corrections yesterday. Thanks.😊
ChookMother 🇦🇺🦘@anne_twain @Sheril. I am well aware of her talent as clear from her Posts. I only corrected my mistake. 😋😊
@Sheril Saying "I was wrong" is the fundamental act of a Christian.
Pete@Sheril A few politicians have done this, and gotten blasted for flip-flopping.
BigDogBo@Sheril I need to put this up in my office as well. Working around a bunch of deniers for everything.
So true.
Sagan, in his role as a scientific communicator, showed time and again the power of the scientific method and its adaptability in the face of facts.
As opposed to politicians and religious... err... 'self-proclaimed authorities'... who try to twist facts to meet their dogma.
@Sheril That's kind of sad, because it says he didn't look very well. Most major religions change and mutate over time - gently, to be sure, but it happens. And in politics, it happens fairly often, although far less glacially than with religion.
Funny quote, but not a good one.
@Sheril
This claim confuses individual behaviour with the behaviour of organisations. For example most scientists accepted that Covid-19 is airborne in the first few months of the pandemic, but the WHO were very slow to change the official view and still place masking above ventilation in their advice.
This claim confuses individual behaviour with the behaviour of organisations. For example most scientists accepted that Covid-19 is airborne in the first few months of the pandemic, but the WHO were very slow to change the official view and still place masking above ventilation in their advice.
Ashley Porciuncula